Absolute Chaos Discussion Boards

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Hi AC/FICTALKers. If you see this (11/12/2024) please see new post in General Discussions about Open Doors OTW Organization for Transformative Works) offering to help preserve the AC archive and let me know your thoughts:

https://absolutechaos.net/fictalk/index.php/topic,3415.msg125627.html#new

Author Topic: Found this interesting  (Read 4151 times)

mare

  • Banner hater
  • Queen of Fanfiction
  • Supreme Time Waster
  • *****
  • Posts: 23822
Found this interesting
« on: April 05, 2007, 11:01:53 AM »

Thought i'd share this here. :)

Being a good author is a disappearing act.

By ELMORE LEONARD

These are rules I’ve picked up along the way to help me remain invisible when I’m writing a book, to help me show rather than tell what’s taking place in the story. If you have a facility for language and imagery and the sound of your voice pleases you, invisibility is not what you are after, and you can skip the rules. Still, you might look them over.

1. Never open a book with weather. If it’s only to create atmosphere, and not a character’s reaction to the weather, you don’t want to go on too long. The reader is apt to leaf ahead looking for people. There are exceptions. If you happen to be Barry Lopez, who has more ways to describe ice and snow than an Eskimo, you can do all the weather reporting you want.

2. Avoid prologues.

They can be annoying, especially a prologue following an introduction that comes after a foreword. But these are ordinarily found in nonfiction. A prologue in a novel is backstory, and you can drop it in anywhere you want.

There is a prologue in John Steinbeck’s “Sweet Thursday,” but it’s O.K. because a character in the book makes the point of what my rules are all about. He says: “I like a lot of talk in a book and I don’t like to have nobody tell me what the guy that’s talking looks like. I want to figure out what he looks like from the way he talks. . . . figure out what the guy’s thinking from what he says. I like some description but not too much of that. . . . Sometimes I want a book to break loose with a bunch of hooptedoodle. . . . Spin up some pretty words maybe or sing a little song with language. That’s nice. But I wish it was set aside so I don’t have to read it. I don’t want hooptedoodle to get mixed up with the story.”

3. Never use a verb other than “said” to carry dialogue.

The line of dialogue belongs to the character; the verb is the writer sticking his nose in. But said is far less intrusive than grumbled, gasped, cautioned, lied. I once noticed Mary McCarthy ending a line of dialogue with “she asseverated,” and had to stop reading to get the dictionary.

4. Never use an adverb to modify the verb “said” . . .

. . . he admonished gravely. To use an adverb this way (or almost any way) is a mortal sin. The writer is now exposing himself in earnest, using a word that distracts and can interrupt the rhythm of the exchange. I have a character in one of my books tell how she used to write historical romances “full of rape and adverbs.”

5. Keep your exclamation points under control.

You are allowed no more than two or three per 100,000 words of prose. If you have the knack of playing with exclaimers the way Tom Wolfe does, you can throw them in by the handful.

6. Never use the words “suddenly” or “all hell broke loose.”

This rule doesn’t require an explanation. I have noticed that writers who use “suddenly” tend to exercise less control in the application of exclamation points.

7. Use regional dialect, patois, sparingly.

Once you start spelling words in dialogue phonetically and loading the page with apostrophes, you won’t be able to stop. Notice the way Annie Proulx captures the flavor of Wyoming voices in her book of short stories “Close Range.”

8. Avoid detailed descriptions of characters.

Which Steinbeck covered. In Ernest Hemingway’s “Hills Like White Elephants” what do the “American and the girl with him” look like? “She had taken off her hat and put it on the table.” That’s the only reference to a physical description in the story, and yet we see the couple and know them by their tones of voice, with not one adverb in sight.

9. Don’t go into great detail describing places and things.

Unless you’re Margaret Atwood and can paint scenes with language or write landscapes in the style of Jim Harrison. But even if you’re good at it, you don’t want descriptions that bring the action, the flow of the story, to a standstill.

And finally:

10. Try to leave out the part that readers tend to skip.

A rule that came to mind in 1983. Think of what you skip reading a novel: thick paragraphs of prose you can see have too many words in them. What the writer is doing, he’s writing, perpetrating hooptedoodle, perhaps taking another shot at the weather, or has gone into the character’s head, and the reader either knows what the guy’s thinking or doesn’t care. I’ll bet you don’t skip dialogue.

My most important rule is one that sums up the 10.

If it sounds like writing, I rewrite it.

Or, if proper usage gets in the way, it may have to go. I can’t allow what we learned in English composition to disrupt the sound and rhythm of the narrative. It’s my attempt to remain invisible, not distract the reader from the story with obvious writing. (Joseph Conrad said something about words getting in the way of what you want to say.)

If I write in scenes and always from the point of view of a particular character—the one whose view best brings the scene to life—I’m able to concentrate on the voices of the characters telling you who they are and how they feel about what they see and what’s going on, and I’m nowhere in sight.

What Steinbeck did in “Sweet Thursday” was title his chapters as an indication, though obscure, of what they cover. “Whom the Gods Love They Drive Nuts” is one, “Lousy Wednesday” another. The third chapter is titled “Hooptedoodle 1” and the 38th chapter “Hooptedoodle 2” as warnings to the reader, as if Steinbeck is saying: “Here’s where you’ll see me taking flights of fancy with my writing, and it won’t get in the way of the story. Skip them if you want.”

“Sweet Thursday” came out in 1954, when I was just beginning to be published, and I’ve never forgotten that prologue.

Did I read the hooptedoodle chapters? Every word.

Logged
Writing is something you do alone. Its a profession for introverts who want to tell you a story but don't want to make eye contact while doing it. ~ John Green

honey

  • Supreme Time Waster
  • *******
  • Posts: 5321
    • Being Jamie Baker Website
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 11:30:27 AM »

That was very interesting. Merci for sharing!
Logged
If Ryan looked at me the wrong way, I lost it. If Ryan looked at me the right way, I lost it. And whenever he tried to kiss me, something usually blew up. Someone ought to teach him a little control.

RokofAges75

  • Supreme Time Waster
  • *******
  • Posts: 18642
    • Dreamer's Sanctuary
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 12:21:34 PM »

Very interesting!  I totally agree with some of those and totally disagree with others.


4. Never use an adverb to modify the verb “said” . . .

I read that on pretty much every writing tutorial I see.  JK Rowling has been criticized for using too many adverbs.  I don't think you should NEVER use them, but use them sparingly and try to find better ways to get the point across that a character is saying something serious in a grave voice than writing "he said gravely."  (It's hard to do though!)


7. Use regional dialect, patois, sparingly.

I don't mind slight use of dialect, like having a character say something like "I seen him runnin' away," cause I think that helps you paint a picture of that character in your mind.  You can actually HEAR him saying that.  It's when the dialect gets hard to decipher that it gets annoying.  I love the book "Redwall" by Brian Jacques and some of its sequels and prequels, the ones that I've read, but one thing that drives me nuts in that series is all the weird dialects.  They take me so much time to translate that sometimes I just skip them altogether and hope the characters weren't saying anything too important LOL.  Props to him for figuring out how to write dialogue that way and keep it consistent, but good god LOL.


8. Avoid detailed descriptions of characters.

That's a Mary Sue no-no anyway.  I don't like when half a page is devoted to the description of a character.  I'd rather paint a picture of her in my mind as I'm reading - what she looks like, what her personality is like, her background, etc.  I think it's okay to not describe physical appearance at all, although I think it's nice when the author does, especially if the character's appearance is interesting.  The characters in Harry Potter are a good example.


"Or, if proper usage gets in the way, it may have to go. I can’t allow what we learned in English composition to disrupt the sound and rhythm of the narrative."

I may be a grammar police, but I totally agree with this too.  The way you write an essay or an article or any piece of nonfiction is different from the way you should write a story.  It's okay to use contractions because it makes the voice sound more natural, and and it's okay to write in fragments when it's done for effect.  It would all sound too stiff if everything was written in formal English.


2. Avoid prologues.

This one I don't really agree with.  I do tend to skip forewards and whatnot, or go back and read them after I've read the book, if I liked it, but prologues are nice sometimes.  If they reveal an interesting backstory, something that happened long, long ago and will apparantly be important to what happens in the actual story, that helps to suck me in.  If they are a shortened version of an intense scene that will come later in the story, and they end in a cliffhanger, that makes me want to keep reading to find out what happens after I work back up to that part.  I like prologues.


3. Never use a verb other than “said” to carry dialogue.

This is the one I MAJORLY disagree with.  If you write a story and only use the word "said" to carry dialogue, that would be repetitive and BORING.  And you'd also probably fall into that trap of using adverbs because, to keep it from being boring and repetitive, you'd want to describe HOW it was said.  Using words like "whispered" or "shouted" or "groaned" instead makes it a lot more interesting and dynamic.
Logged
~Julie

"Sometimes writers and sociopaths are hard to tell apart." -J.K. Rowling

DragonStar

  • Major Disruption
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
  • Jeezy Chreezy™!
    • Write On My Soul - My Fic Site
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 05:12:58 PM »

Very interesting!  I totally agree with some of those and totally disagree with others.


4. Never use an adverb to modify the verb “said” . . .

I read that on pretty much every writing tutorial I see.  JK Rowling has been criticized for using too many adverbs.  I don't think you should NEVER use them, but use them sparingly and try to find better ways to get the point across that a character is saying something serious in a grave voice than writing "he said gravely."  (It's hard to do though!)


7. Use regional dialect, patois, sparingly.

I don't mind slight use of dialect, like having a character say something like "I seen him runnin' away," cause I think that helps you paint a picture of that character in your mind.  You can actually HEAR him saying that.  It's when the dialect gets hard to decipher that it gets annoying.  I love the book "Redwall" by Brian Jacques and some of its sequels and prequels, the ones that I've read, but one thing that drives me nuts in that series is all the weird dialects.  They take me so much time to translate that sometimes I just skip them altogether and hope the characters weren't saying anything too important LOL.  Props to him for figuring out how to write dialogue that way and keep it consistent, but good god LOL.


8. Avoid detailed descriptions of characters.

That's a Mary Sue no-no anyway.  I don't like when half a page is devoted to the description of a character.  I'd rather paint a picture of her in my mind as I'm reading - what she looks like, what her personality is like, her background, etc.  I think it's okay to not describe physical appearance at all, although I think it's nice when the author does, especially if the character's appearance is interesting.  The characters in Harry Potter are a good example.


"Or, if proper usage gets in the way, it may have to go. I can’t allow what we learned in English composition to disrupt the sound and rhythm of the narrative."

I may be a grammar police, but I totally agree with this too.  The way you write an essay or an article or any piece of nonfiction is different from the way you should write a story.  It's okay to use contractions because it makes the voice sound more natural, and and it's okay to write in fragments when it's done for effect.  It would all sound too stiff if everything was written in formal English.


2. Avoid prologues.

This one I don't really agree with.  I do tend to skip forewards and whatnot, or go back and read them after I've read the book, if I liked it, but prologues are nice sometimes.  If they reveal an interesting backstory, something that happened long, long ago and will apparantly be important to what happens in the actual story, that helps to suck me in.  If they are a shortened version of an intense scene that will come later in the story, and they end in a cliffhanger, that makes me want to keep reading to find out what happens after I work back up to that part.  I like prologues.


3. Never use a verb other than “said” to carry dialogue.

This is the one I MAJORLY disagree with.  If you write a story and only use the word "said" to carry dialogue, that would be repetitive and BORING.  And you'd also probably fall into that trap of using adverbs because, to keep it from being boring and repetitive, you'd want to describe HOW it was said.  Using words like "whispered" or "shouted" or "groaned" instead makes it a lot more interesting and dynamic.

I agree with you. Of course, I've also broken almost every one of those rules. It would explain why I have almost zero readers(in addition to my habit of going long periods of time without updating LOL.)...

I try not to use long paragraphs to describe people or places unless I have a really clear picture in my head of how something looks. I hardly do that, though lol. I'm better with dialogue than with descriptions anyway LMAO.

That was a really good article though, thanks for sharing it!
Logged
~Dragon*~

Icon by ___iicons on LJ

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

honey

  • Supreme Time Waster
  • *******
  • Posts: 5321
    • Being Jamie Baker Website
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 05:56:43 PM »

I'm better with dialogue than with descriptions anyway LMAO.


Good for you Mel!!! Seriously! "good" dialog is soooo hard! If that's your strong point, then the rest should be a walk in the park!
Logged
If Ryan looked at me the wrong way, I lost it. If Ryan looked at me the right way, I lost it. And whenever he tried to kiss me, something usually blew up. Someone ought to teach him a little control.

Purpura Lipstick

  • General Pandemonium
  • *****
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 06:44:17 PM »

He talked of cutting out parts that readers tend to skip, he should've cut out most of his article *hums* I skipped MOST of it. Bleh, Elmore Leonard, while published is not my literary icon. 

I really disagree with the only use "said" thing too... BORING!  and the adverb thing, kept to a minimum has got to be okay really...  I'll never read his books if he only uses said.
Logged
- Purpura -
   -Lore-

MellzBellz

  • Commander of Confusion
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 09:28:59 PM »

I disagee w/ the said thing too. I've read that a writer should steer clear from too many dialogue tags (which I am VERY guilty of and working on, but its a hard habit to break.) I just feel the word "said" is so vague. I remember I think in like 5th grade my class made a book for the 100th day of school "100 words to use instead of said." And now I think said is like a sin to use.

I agree that dialogue tags can interrupt the flow of dialogue, but sometimes I do like a lttle descrption thrown in too. It helps me keep track of who is talking and helps me visaualize the scene a little better. So yea... I kind of disagree.
Logged

starbeamz

  • Chief of Disorder
  • ******
  • Posts: 4106
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 09:35:23 PM »

I disagee w/ the said thing too. I've read that a writer should steer clear from too many dialogue tags (which I am VERY guilty of and working on, but its a hard habit to break.) I just feel the word "said" is so vague. I remember I think in like 5th grade my class made a book for the 100th day of school "100 words to use instead of said." And now I think said is like a sin to use.

I agree that dialogue tags can interrupt the flow of dialogue, but sometimes I do like a lttle descrption thrown in too. It helps me keep track of who is talking and helps me visaualize the scene a little better. So yea... I kind of disagree.

I've heard the dialogue tags thing, too, so I'm trying to follow that. I've realized that it's really hard to come up with all sorts of different verbs without the writing sounding strange, so I've been following some of my favorite published novelists and leaving a lot of the "said"'s and "explained"s out. I've found it easier to describe what the person is doing (i.e. taking off a hat, walking towards the door) and then have dialogue wound around that. It sounds more natural than having she said and he said with every line of dialogue.
Logged
Sarah

nicksgal

  • Supreme Time Waster
  • *******
  • Posts: 10984
  • Fool, said my Muse, look in thy heart and write
    • Could You Do Me Right?
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2007, 10:39:30 PM »

I thought I'd toss this out there.

Said isn't really a good thing to use, adverbs and said are a step above that, and words instead of said are above that.

What you are supposed to do, as I've been told in my class, is to use action to describe emotion.

For instance... *Scenario*: A girl just bought tickets to the next Backstreet Boys concert for her and her best friend. But, the best friend reveals that she can't go because of some unknown reason....

Dialogue tagged version:

"Sorry," Megan mummbled, "I can't go."

"What do you mean you can't go?!" Angela shouted.

Actions:

"Sorry..." Megan dug her toe into the ground and lowered her head, "I can't go."

"What do you mean you can't go?!" Angela threw the tickets to the ground and stomped one foot.

Yay! I hope that makes sense. :)

Not that anyone was really looking for a tutorial... I just felt like jotting it down.... :-[ *backs out of thread*
Logged
~*Dee*~

People think it would be fun to be a bird because you could fly. But they forget the negative side, which is the preening.

From "And Now, Deep Thoughts" by Jack Handey

RokofAges75

  • Supreme Time Waster
  • *******
  • Posts: 18642
    • Dreamer's Sanctuary
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2007, 10:12:23 AM »

^ I agree; that's the best way to do it.
Logged
~Julie

"Sometimes writers and sociopaths are hard to tell apart." -J.K. Rowling

honey

  • Supreme Time Waster
  • *******
  • Posts: 5321
    • Being Jamie Baker Website
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2007, 11:06:30 AM »

Yeah, that's why writing in screenplay format is so hard. You can't use words like *gasped or *grumbled. and you can't go inside the character's heads. You have to show everything through dialog and actions and that's it.  ...very hard   but extremely exciting and visual if done properly.
Logged
If Ryan looked at me the wrong way, I lost it. If Ryan looked at me the right way, I lost it. And whenever he tried to kiss me, something usually blew up. Someone ought to teach him a little control.

MellzBellz

  • Commander of Confusion
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2007, 11:53:02 AM »

I've heard the dialogue tags thing, too, so I'm trying to follow that. I've realized that it's really hard to come up with all sorts of different verbs without the writing sounding strange, so I've been following some of my favorite published novelists and leaving a lot of the "said"'s and "explained"s out. I've found it easier to describe what the person is doing (i.e. taking off a hat, walking towards the door) and then have dialogue wound around that. It sounds more natural than having she said and he said with every line of dialogue.

Yea... that's what I'm working on doing too. Describing action vs a dialogue tag, but its hard. When I started writing Sexcapades, Laura told me the one rule was NO dialogue tags. OMG that was REALLY hard for me, but it got easier and it works with the style of that story. Now for UMS I still get stuck w/ dialogue tags a lot. I've gotten better though. And it REALLY is tough to think of original verbs so you're not repeating yourself.
Logged

mare

  • Banner hater
  • Queen of Fanfiction
  • Supreme Time Waster
  • *****
  • Posts: 23822
Re: Found this interesting
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2007, 05:02:40 PM »

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with everything he said. Especially about the word said lol but I did think it was interesting. If I find anymore of these, I will pass them along.
Logged
Writing is something you do alone. Its a profession for introverts who want to tell you a story but don't want to make eye contact while doing it. ~ John Green