Fic Talk > General Discussion
The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
nicksgal:
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 27, 2021, 05:55:50 PM ---I hear ya. I hope your students do go on trips to lighten your load a little this week. Hang in there!
--- End quote ---
Fingers crossed!
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 27, 2021, 05:55:50 PM ---My absolute favorite Kevin performance is from the 2013 cruise. They each did a solo event, and Kevin's was called "Cover Story" - a little late night concert of him performing covers of some of his favorite songs. He was supposed to release a solo album like this in 2015, but that never happened. Anyway, he brought everyone (including himself) to tears singing "Danny's Song." There is also a beautiful studio version of his cover that I listened to on repeat three years ago when I was starting MBK, but watch the live performance too. It's such a perfect representation of Kevin and his tender heart. Otherwise, maybe watch the documentary or that Instagram live he did with Nick.
--- End quote ---
This is great! Thanks for the help as always! I was thinking about rewatching the documentary as well. Perhaps someday I will be able to provide you with assistance. :)
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 27, 2021, 05:55:50 PM ---Watching it now, and I'm already nodding in agreement. I absolutely love Wikipedia. I get why it's not considered a reputable source, but it's great for an overview and, like the video said, to find reputable sources. I never use Wikipedia as my only source, but the information I read there almost always aligns with what other sources say and is easier to understand than scholarly articles. The beauty of researching for writing fiction is that no one's going to nail you for not using 100% "reputable" sources, as long as your information is correct enough to be believable.
I hear you with the "I'll remember this. I don't need to write it down." I don't trust myself to remember it, which is why I bookmark every site I find useful, but I don't take a ton of notes for most fanfics. I tend to include more research notes in my outlines for my medical dramas, where there may be a lot of new information or complicated treatment schedules to keep track of. If I'm researching far in advance of when I'll need the information, I'm more likely to write it down so I don't have to start all over from scratch when I actually get to that part, but usually I have a more general idea of what I'm writing about and look up specific details when I need them.
--- End quote ---
I also always start with Wikipedia because of the wealth of other sources, unless I don't think I'll find the answer to my question there (e.g., are snails smart?) or a quick youtube serach would be more beneficial (e.g., show me birds falling out of trees and sticking the landing). I've always loved the little references section, there's so many neat things there. I enjoy scholarly articles sometimes, but I think that's because of the subject matter I tend to research. I know that if I was looking up medical information, I would gloss over at all of the large vocabulary words. Math and science are the same way. Humanities topics are a little easier until it gets into philosophical stuff, then it becomes a process.
That's so true! Unless you're writing historical fiction, the plausibility is more important than exact accuracy. I imagine anyone who writes historical fiction does a lot of exact research.
I think your way is probably better and I'm trying to use it to inspire myself to create more documentation for myself. I am always impressed by your level of organization. Bookmarks seems daunting, but note pages are probably more my speed. Then I can do my self-reactionary commentary that I enjoy.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 28, 2021, 10:42:29 AM ---Well that's good you got some new ideas from old inspiration! I bet it is hard to remember things you came across a decade ago without writing them down LOL.
--- End quote ---
I was pretty excited about it! New things to research and learn. And now some old weird doodles and notes I found make a lot more sense again, rather than the vague vagueness I remembered. I looked back over the original version of PBox and found some seeds where the inspiration shone through a little, but I think all the initial classical mythology inspiration got overshadowed by my (at the time) new found love of Asian mythology. PBox is kind of a mess in that way, it's a mishmash of all the bits and pieces of mythology that I love. There's even some Ancient Egyptian inspired stuff in there, It's just a lot less prevalent!
nicksgal:
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---1. Is there a story you're holding off on writing for some reason?
I actually thought I would hold off on the one I'm currently writing, My Brother's Keeper, because of what it has in common with my last two stories. I thought I would need a break from the medical drama aspect of it, but maybe I've just been building up to it.
I guess the one I'm holding off on now is the Brian horror story I thought I was going to write next. Although it would seem "easier" to write than MBK because it requires less research, I'm anticipating it being harder because it's something different from what I'm used to writing. Let's just say psychological stuff seems more intimidating than physical stuff.
--- End quote ---
I always found some hesitation with starting new projects, even if I enjoyed the idea. I wonder why this is. Since medical drama is your wheelhouse, how often do you find yourself wanting to "take a break" from it?
Ooh, horror. Psychological stuff is harder! The brain is a mysterious thing and getting into someone's psyche can take a toll.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---2. What work of yours, if any, are you the most embarrassed about existing?
That would be a "novel" I wrote in 2000 called Silent Desperation. It's about Brian getting addicted to painkillers after being injured in a car accident. Decent idea... terrible execution. I didn't come up with the premise myself; it was given to me by a friend, and at fifteen, I was still too young and naive to do it justice. This was when I didn't have internet in my bedroom, so I did a scant amount of research using the only source I had easy access to - Encarta '95 on CD-Rom LOL. It definitely shows that I had no idea what I was talking about. After all, Lurlene McDaniel didn't have a book about drug addiction LOL.
--- End quote ---
How many of your premises were ideas from other people? It seems like the ones that came from other people are your least favorite stories. Oh Encarta '95. World Book '98 on CD-Rom was also one of my research tools, so I understand this completely! lmao, you needed to call up Lurlene and tell her that you needed some teen drug addiction stories, stat!
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---5. Character you were most surprised to end up writing?
I'm pleasantly surprised to finally be writing a Kevin novel. I guess after 21 years, it was about freaking time. Sorry, Kevin LOL.
--- End quote ---
I guess we need a new hashtag around here. #TeamKevin! What do you think made you put off writing a Kevin story for such a long time?
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---6. Something you would go back and change in your writing that it's too late/complicated to change now?
I would go back and fix the grammatical mistakes I used to make - stuff like writing "His heart sunk" instead of "His heart sank." Another one I learned just a few years ago is that "blonde" is the female version of the word and "blond" is the male version, so technically Nick has blond hair, not blonde. I probably still mess that one up from time to time because I am so used to using "blonde" indiscriminate ly. If I'm editing a story anyway and come across mistakes like that, I'll fix them, but I haven't gone as far as reposting chapters of old stories just to correct that stuff. It wouldn't really be complicated, just time-consuming. I haven't gotten that bored yet LOL.
--- End quote ---
I'm about to blow your mind, lol. Brunet is male, brunette is female. Luckily, "has brown hair" is a perfectly acceptable equivalent, whereas "has yellow hair" is not. This might be one of English's more bizarre borrows from French language, since adjectives get changed to match the genders (and quantities) of nouns, but our nouns aren't gendered. I think Spanish, Italian, and Latin may do the same thing, but I'm not as familiar with them. If anything stuck from my years of French, it was definitely that Nick is blond and not blonde.
How bored would you have to be to go back and fix stuff like that? (I'm channeling Howie, lol.)
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---7. When asked, are you embarrassed or enthusiastic to tell people that you write?
Embarrassed. I never even mention writing when I'm asked about my hobbies, even though it's been my favorite hobby for two decades and is the only real hobby I have these days outside of watching TV, which I don't think really counts LOL. I just don't want to have to any follow-up questions about what I write or if someone else can read it. No!
Part of that has to do with it being BSB fanfic, part of it is the subject matter I write about it, and part of it is just me. I have always been shy about sharing my writing, even before I started writing fanfic. I wrote a story for the Young Author's competition every year in elementary school, and I won for my class every year from 4th grade to 8th, but I was always embarrassed about letting anyone but my teacher read my story.
--- End quote ---
Watching TV is a hobby, I think. I haven't ever actually gotten many follow-up questions. I think it's all about how you frame the initial response? But I understand the shyness aspect of it. Writing is fairly personal. What happens after you win the Young Author's competition? Does it get published?
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---14. Do you make playlists for your stories while working on them?
Sometimes certain pieces or scores will remind me of certain stories because of how often I listened to it when writing that story. The Braveheart soundtrack reminds me of Broken, especially the track called "The Princess Pleads for Wallace's Life," which I listened to on repeat when I was writing the choppage chapter. There's a song called "Primavera," that is still a staple of my writing playlist because it's so sad and beautiful, but I'll always associate it with Sick as My Secrets. My favorite piece for My Brother's Keeper is "Arrival of the Birds," although I've also been loving these long piano medleys of Linkin Park songs.
--- End quote ---
I love that you listened to the Braveheart soundtrack so much while writing Broken. Why was that?
Also Linkin Park, how emo.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---15. Why did you start writing?
I wanted to read more, so I decided to try my hand at writing a story of my own about Brian and his childhood best friend growing up and falling in love. I never finished the first version of it, but that's how I started writing fanfic. I eventually went back to that idea and rewrote it as "Years of Grace."
--- End quote ---
I love that wanting to read more made you decide to start writing. I think that happens a lot with inspiration, something was just too short.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---19. When it come to more complicated narratives, how do you keep track of outlines, characters, development, timeline, etcetera?
I have one big outline for each novel that includes all that kind of information. The outline for my current story is 13 pages long so far and has a section on settings, a section on characters, a timeline, a chapter by chapter outline that I'm adding to as I go, a bulleted list of future plot points and ideas, and a section for research notes. It's one of my more elaborate outlines because it's a medical drama set in BSB history, so there's a lot to keep track of.
--- End quote ---
This is so organized! Teach me your ways, haha.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---20. Do you write in long sit-down sessions or in little spurts?
I can sit in front of my computer and "write" for hours, but in reality, I'm not actually writing that whole time. Usually I'll write a few words or maybe a few sentences, then open a new tab to look something up or check Twitter or this forum. Then I'll go back to the story and write a little more. So I'm not sure if that counts as long sit-down sessions or little spurts LOL. I guess it's a combination of both.
--- End quote ---
Maybe it depends on how long those "breaks" are? Or whatever you would like to call it; you're the writer after all.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---21. What do you think when you read over your older work?
I am generally proud of everything I've written post-Broken. The really old, pre-Broken stuff is pretty bad, but when I think about how young I was then, I'm still proud of myself for putting forth the effort to write it. Everyone starts somewhere, and I had to write those stories to become a better fiction writer. I can't say I really go back and read those stories, but on the rare occasion I've skimmed through one for whatever reason, it puts a smile on my face - partly because of how bad it was, but also because of the nostalgia. I love the references to early-2000s pop culture and outdated technology. All those old fanfics - not just mine - are such a throwback to one of my favorite times in my life.
--- End quote ---
I think that, overall, you have the most positive feelings about your old writing. I think that's great!
Yes, references to early-2000s pop culture! Those are always hilarious to look back on. Technological advancement is wild! Have you ever watched the "Kids React" episodes on YouTube? Whenever they pull out old technology, it is hilarious.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 26, 2021, 11:57:47 PM ---23. Any obscure life experiences that you feel have helped your writing?
But we eventually made it to the top of the hill and saw the monument, and I got a good story of it, so it all worked out. Anyway, that is the obscure life experience I draw on when writing about broken ribs or hiking injuries, such as in Road to Bethlehem.
--- End quote ---
That sounds like it was painful! Glad you made it to the top, injury aside, and have a good story. How often do you tell this one?
RokofAges75:
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 11:43:58 AM ---This is only slightly related to both of these because of Easter/Holy Week, but my friend got a weird ad yesterday and I'm so grateful she shared it with me because I laughed so hard. So if anyone was looking for a good Easter outfit, I've got you covered. haha
--- End quote ---
LMAO!! I saw that same ad on Facebook weeks ago and died laughing at it too.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 12:19:20 PM ---This is great! Thanks for the help as always! I was thinking about rewatching the documentary as well. Perhaps someday I will be able to provide you with assistance. :)
--- End quote ---
You're welcome! Happy to help.
I almost asked for suggestions for what my character should see in a hallucination, but I figured it out just now. While browsing for ideas, I found this fun Wikipedia article about animal stereotypes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_animals I went down a rabbit hole in the section on lemmings and learned that the stereotype about lemmings committing mass suicide by jumping off cliffs one after the other was perpetuated by Disney in a nature documentary they did in the 50s where the movie makers literally threw the lemmings off the cliff themselves to get more dramatic footage. There's your disturbing fact of the day. Disney is fucked up.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 12:19:20 PM ---I enjoy scholarly articles sometimes, but I think that's because of the subject matter I tend to research. I know that if I was looking up medical information, I would gloss over at all of the large vocabulary words. Math and science are the same way. Humanities topics are a little easier until it gets into philosophical stuff, then it becomes a process.
--- End quote ---
I love medical journal articles, especially case reports, because the information is so much more detailed than the stuff on medical sites designed for patients and families, but I definitely have to look up some of the vocabulary. At one point yesterday, I had like ten tabs open at the same time trying to figure out something for my story. Math and science that's not biology make my head hurt. Philosophy is interesting, but also complex.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 12:19:20 PM ---I was pretty excited about it! New things to research and learn. And now some old weird doodles and notes I found make a lot more sense again, rather than the vague vagueness I remembered. I looked back over the original version of PBox and found some seeds where the inspiration shone through a little, but I think all the initial classical mythology inspiration got overshadowed by my (at the time) new found love of Asian mythology. PBox is kind of a mess in that way, it's a mishmash of all the bits and pieces of mythology that I love. There's even some Ancient Egyptian inspired stuff in there, It's just a lot less prevalent!
--- End quote ---
That's cool that you were able to use bits and pieces of mythology from different cultures. That seems like a good way to do it when you're world-building in a fantasy because then you can make it more your own.
nicksgal:
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 28, 2021, 01:35:04 PM ---LMAO!! I saw that same ad on Facebook weeks ago and died laughing at it too.
--- End quote ---
Glad I wasn't the only one. I wondered if it made me a terrible person!
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 28, 2021, 01:35:04 PM ---I almost asked for suggestions for what my character should see in a hallucination, but I figured it out just now. While browsing for ideas, I found this fun Wikipedia article about animal stereotypes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_animals I went down a rabbit hole in the section on lemmings and learned that the stereotype about lemmings committing mass suicide by jumping off cliffs one after the other was perpetuated by Disney in a nature documentary they did in the 50s where the movie makers literally threw the lemmings off the cliff themselves to get more dramatic footage. There's your disturbing fact of the day. Disney is fucked up.
--- End quote ---
Ooh, hallucinations . Fun! I was reading about hallucinations today too, not for any specific reasons, just kind of ended up there, lol. There's apparently theories about old religious rites involving the use of fungi, molds, parasites, etcetera to induce hallucinogenic effects for immersion in the rites, but we can't be sure since ancient mystery cults don't really write down their rituals being... well mystery cults and all. Things like that have only become more fascinating to me after being in a sorority; not sure if it's the "I get it" factor or what.
I did know that about the lemmings! It's so sad! Early Hollywood is wild! The other one that's really fascinating is all the crazy behind-the-scenes stuff from Wizard of Oz.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 28, 2021, 01:35:04 PM ---I love medical journal articles, especially case reports, because the information is so much more detailed than the stuff on medical sites designed for patients and families, but I definitely have to look up some of the vocabulary. At one point yesterday, I had like ten tabs open at the same time trying to figure out something for my story. Math and science that's not biology make my head hurt. Philosophy is interesting, but also complex.
--- End quote ---
Ten tabs would drive me crazy! I try to keep my tabs as clean as possible, but it's near impossible when researching. Case reports are great! I remember enjoying them a lot when I was getting my licensure. I always love things written for other professionals because it gets into the nitty gritty rather than broad overviews, like you said.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 28, 2021, 01:35:04 PM ---That's cool that you were able to use bits and pieces of mythology from different cultures. That seems like a good way to do it when you're world-building in a fantasy because then you can make it more your own.
--- End quote ---
I love mythology. I think it's fascinating how religion, science, culture, etcetera all get woven together into interesting stories. I think it speaks to the part of me that loves writing. And you're correct, it definitely helps create something a little more unique. Though PBox as is definitely leans heavily into Asiatic aesthetics. I've been working on the more well-roundedness of it as I delve into OF territory. Including just going full-Tolkien and creating a language. I'm a little worried about it, to be honest.
RokofAges75:
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 01:34:08 PM ---I always found some hesitation with starting new projects, even if I enjoyed the idea. I wonder why this is. Since medical drama is your wheelhouse, how often do you find yourself wanting to "take a break" from it?
Ooh, horror. Psychological stuff is harder! The brain is a mysterious thing and getting into someone's psyche can take a toll.
--- End quote ---
I think it's a comfort thing. The longer you write a story, the more comfortable you feel with it. Once you finish it and are facing starting a brand new project, there's the fear of, "Can I pull this off? Will it be as good as my last story?" I feel that way even when I'm excited about the idea. At least with my medical drama, I've gotten to the point where I trust in my own ability to do it justice, even when I know it's going to take a lot of research. I look forward to the challenge. That's probably why I went with My Brother's Keeper over Fallen Angel - they're both ideas that will challenge me, but in different ways. MBK is still solidly in my wheelhouse, whereas Fallen Angel is totally new territory for me.
I probably say I'm ready to take a break from medical drama every time I finish writing a particularly intense one, but I always go right back to it within a few months LOL. I finished A Heart That Isn't Mine (medical drama) in November 2019, took a break to write The Year Without a Pandaskunk (not medical drama), and then went back to Heroic Measures (medical drama) in April 2020. Road to Bethlehem started out being a break from medical drama and then kind of turned into a medical drama, which is why I thought I was ready for another break from it. But here I am, back at it again. LOL
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 01:34:08 PM ---How many of your premises were ideas from other people? It seems like the ones that came from other people are your least favorite stories. Oh Encarta '95. World Book '98 on CD-Rom was also one of my research tools, so I understand this completely! lmao, you needed to call up Lurlene and tell her that you needed some teen drug addiction stories, stat!
--- End quote ---
Only a couple that I can think of offhand, but yes, those are probably my two least favorite stories of all time LOL. I obviously liked the ideas enough at the time to try writing them, but I just wasn't as committed to them as I am with most of my own ideas. With Silent Desperation, I just didn't really know what I was doing. The other one like this was my first AU, a long-lost sibling story called The Other Child, and that one I just ran out of steam on and wrapped it up too quickly so I could be done writing it.
LOL I think addiction was too scandalous for Lurlene. Her books were all pretty wholesome.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 01:34:08 PM ---I guess we need a new hashtag around here. #TeamKevin! What do you think made you put off writing a Kevin story for such a long time?
--- End quote ---
#TeamKevin! I just never had a good idea for a Kevin novel. The closest I've come is with Guilty Roads, which feels like a Nick/Kevin story because a lot of the focus is on Kevin... but since Kevin gets shot in the head in Chapter 3 and has been in a coma ever since, he doesn't really do enough for me to consider him a main character LOL.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 01:34:08 PM ---I'm about to blow your mind, lol. Brunet is male, brunette is female. Luckily, "has brown hair" is a perfectly acceptable equivalent, whereas "has yellow hair" is not. This might be one of English's more bizarre borrows from French language, since adjectives get changed to match the genders (and quantities) of nouns, but our nouns aren't gendered. I think Spanish, Italian, and Latin may do the same thing, but I'm not as familiar with them. If anything stuck from my years of French, it was definitely that Nick is blond and not blonde.
How bored would you have to be to go back and fix stuff like that? (I'm channeling Howie, lol.)
--- End quote ---
I think I actually discovered the brunet/brunette thing at the same time as blond/blonde. (I obviously did not take French LOL.) I don't tend to use that word to describe men with brown hair though the way I use "blond" for men... mainly Nick LOL. Like you said, "brown hair" sounds a lot better than "yellow hair."
I don't think I would ever get bored enough to go back and fix stuff like that in anything pre-Broken. I did get bored enough during quarantine last year to go back and fix typos in some of my post-BMS novels. I had highlighted every mistake I came across when reading them on my Kindle as I was working on my 20th anniversary blogs, so when I decided to start putting some of my stories on AO3, I thought I better go back through them and fix that stuff before I posted them. I have not gotten bored enough to go back to Broken and BMS because the number of highlights is overwhelming LOL.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 01:34:08 PM ---Watching TV is a hobby, I think. I haven't ever actually gotten many follow-up questions. I think it's all about how you frame the initial response? But I understand the shyness aspect of it. Writing is fairly personal. What happens after you win the Young Author's competition? Does it get published?
--- End quote ---
Well, good! Then I have more hobbies than I thought LOL.
Writing is definitely personal. I don't have any non-fandom friends who write for fun that I'm aware of, but maybe some of them have secret hobbies too LOL.
A copy of the winning Young Author's books would be put in the school library so other kids could check them out, and the winners would get a trophy or plaque. In 8th grade, I won first place for the whole district, and my grandparents had my book professionally bound as a hardback as a gift for me. That was the last piece of fiction I wrote before I started writing fanfic, and it was the perfect bridge into what I'm best known for now - it was a cancer story LOL. Another girl in my class had won first place the year before for a story about drunk driving, which gave me the idea that if I also wrote a tearjerker about a serious topic, I would have a better shot at winning. Well, sure enough... my plan totally worked LOL. That was the start of me writing medical drama.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 01:34:08 PM ---I love that you listened to the Braveheart soundtrack so much while writing Broken. Why was that?
Also Linkin Park, how emo.
--- End quote ---
The Broken era is when I really got into listening to music while I wrote, so I started with what I had, which was the Titanic soundtracks and apparently Braveheart. I don't remember if I actually owned the Braveheart soundtrack before Broken or if I bought it while I was writing Broken for that purpose, but I have always loved that score. James Horner is one of my favorite movie composers. I needed something sad and dramatic to listen to while I angsted my way through that story, and it fit that mood well.
I've always loved Linkin Park. But yes, very emo! I listened to a lot of LP and Evanescence while writing Broken too LOL.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 01:34:08 PM ---Maybe it depends on how long those "breaks" are? Or whatever you would like to call it; you're the writer after all.
--- End quote ---
LOL I call them "focus fails." But being able to focus fail and go back to actually writing when I feel like it is part of what makes it fun for me and not something that feels like word. I don't ever want it to feel like work.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 01:34:08 PM ---Yes, references to early-2000s pop culture! Those are always hilarious to look back on. Technological advancement is wild! Have you ever watched the "Kids React" episodes on YouTube? Whenever they pull out old technology, it is hilarious.
--- End quote ---
Yes, it's crazy! Writing a story set in 2008 has been interesting because, to me, 2008 doesn't feel that long ago... and yet, I find myself having to fact check so many little details to make sure I'm not writing about things that didn't exist yet then. Questions I've looked up include: Did people have smartphones then? (The first iPhone came out in 2007, so yes.) Did most households still have a landline phone then? (Yes.) Did TMZ exist? (Yes. I had fun browsing TMZ's website from 2008 via the Wayback Machine yesterday. It was actually way more user friendly than TMZ's current site because there weren't a ton of ads slowing it down!)
I love the Kids React videos. I'm assuming you've seen the Kids React to BSB one? And BSB reacts to Kids React to BSB? LOL
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 28, 2021, 01:34:08 PM ---That sounds like it was painful! Glad you made it to the top, injury aside, and have a good story. How often do you tell this one?
--- End quote ---
I don't think I've ever told it online before, but I've told it a few times in real life.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version