Fic Talk > General Discussion
The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
nicksgal:
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 13, 2021, 05:51:43 PM ---This is all good advice. You never know what you'll accomplish if you don't at least open the story and try. But it's good to give yourself grace, especially when you have a good reason not to write. Like, "I just got vaccinated, and my arm hurts, and I don't feel good." Totally valid excuse to skip a day (or several days) and do nothing! At the end of the day, this is a hobby, not a job - it should be fun, not feel like work. If it gets to the point when it feels like a chore, stop forcing it and do something different.
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It doesn't help that Nick cared more about the second half of this chapter than the first half. Stop being quiet Nick, tell me your plans! Realistically, at the end of the day, inspiration can't be forced and the process of forcing it is draining. But if it's one thing that keeps holding up a bunch of other things, it's good to try to bust through it. I am totally using my valid excuse to be a completely useless writer, haha. I preemptively edited my next update chapter, so there's nothing on next week's plate. Gotta get past this "no looming deadlines" bit and write something. It probably doesn't help that I already "see the end" of PNecklace and am trying to figure out what to work on next. I am feeling better and did drink two coffees today, so maybe inspiration will still strike today.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 13, 2021, 05:51:43 PM ---This! It has definitely helped keep me motivated during the work week so I can be productive on the weekends. I even wrote on Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday this week.
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Woah! Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday writing! You are really productive and motivated on this one! I'm glad you found the thing to work on with very little WADD.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 13, 2021, 05:51:43 PM ---LOL That's what I figured and why I was fine with the scene I picked. That plot point has been talked about so much on this forum, it's no longer a spoiler.
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I love when we have ubiquitous things like that, if for nothing else than the jokes.
nicksgal:
--- Quote from: mare on March 13, 2021, 05:56:56 PM ---Most of my stories are written in first person with five points of view. I find that the easiest way to write for some reason.
That probably seemed very random, but I saw it in conversation and sometimes these threads move so fast I can’t remember where so... lol
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--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 13, 2021, 06:00:37 PM ---LOL No worries, we did talk about that the other day. You were good at writing the five different POVs, and I don't remember it getting confusing in your stories.
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It is never random! If you brought this up two weeks from now, I may have forgotten the original discussion, but not when we talked about it on Thursday.
I can't remember, Mare, did you switch between the POVs evenly or were they skewed toward one of the Boys (I assume Nick if that's the case)? I don't feel like your stories were ever confusing because of it, regardless.
RokofAges75:
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 13, 2021, 07:07:17 PM ---When did you write it, and/or how old were you when you wrote it?
Gobosei: 2005-2006, 2013, 2015 (17/18, 25, 27)
PBox: 2005-2008 with an update from September 2020-January 2021 (17-20, 32-barely 33)
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I asked the age question because I was curious to see how many of us were around the same age when we had that leap in writing development. I was also 17 when I started Broken, so we are alike in that way!
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 13, 2021, 07:07:17 PM ---It got fixed earlier in that 2003 OF because I had a friend reading along that knew I based a character off of them, wholly supported it, and had zero qualms telling me "this sucks" when it did suck. I took this perspective to heart and started looking at my fanfics with the same lens.
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Wow, that is some friend! Was it hard to hear "this sucks" from her then, or did you welcome the harsh but honest feedback? I'm glad it helped you look at your writing through another lens and learn from her constructive criticism.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 13, 2021, 07:07:17 PM ---All of that makes me see why self-insert stories would have been popular outside of "My life would be awesome if I dated a Backstreet Boy." It's easier to write a character when you know how they would react to things! But this has the same problem as "my friends are characters" if there's no character development over the course of the story. This is all very vague for Gobosei since there's not much there for anyone else to say "oh yes, all these things are there in it," but they're there in it with the whole picture in my head.
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Yeah, it's definitely easier to use characters who already exist, whether they're people we know in real life or celebrities. It can be fun to base characters on people, too, but it's also fun to create your own. I think the problem with most of the teenybopper Mary Sue stories back in the day was that if the writers created an original character instead of a self-insert, they focused more on her external traits, like her appearance and clothing, than internal traits, so they ended up with this flat drawing of a pretty girl who everyone seemed to love even though she had no substance, rather than a realistic, three-dimensional character. The ability to create one of those comes with experience, so self-inserts may have been a better choice for beginning writers.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 13, 2021, 07:07:17 PM ---And over the years, he's ultimately continued to breathe life into it as an entity, something akin to "You're writing it, but this is my story. I drive this bus." (It's cool, Nick, keep driving the bus. I trust you.)
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Just don't crash the bus, Nick! Or do, and then we can get another fanfic out of it.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 13, 2021, 07:07:17 PM ---Even with strong characters, I came to the realization that PBox was dark. Even with "our demons are different" at play (which is a type of dark in and of itself if your main characters are this "typically always malevolently chaotic evil" type thing; not that PBox demons are that, or at least not our Boys, they're downright heroic saving innocent bystanders and taking cats out of trees in their free time), it was incredibly dark in a way that Gobosei was not and that I had shied away from in the past. But I wanted to write it and Nick wanted control of that bus... immensely. But how to write a very dark thing? Well? The writing to needed to mature; the fun-fest jokey and at times ridiculous way of writing a Gobosei wouldn't fly for a PBox, not with its inherent setting of "the world is crummy." I learned to embrace the dark (Team Dark!) and how to draw lines for too dark, which I kept crossing as time went on. I guess I learned that you have to write dark things a certain way and saved my fun-fest jokey writing for stories that would support it.
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I can relate to this too. Broken doesn't seem that dark to me now, but it is certainly angsty and depressing in parts. Back when I was writing it, I had a lot of angst over the impending amputation. I don't know why because I had already put the Boys through all kinds of tragedies in my earlier stories, even killed some of them... but for whatever reason, chopping off Nick's leg felt like a really big deal to me. But it was also a compelling enough idea that I committed to it, and that is when I learned to take risks, cross lines, embrace the darkness, and run with it. The fact that Broken doesn't seem that dark and chopping off Nick's leg doesn't seem like a big deal to me now just shows me how much darker I've gotten since then LOL. As we've talked about before, it's good to occasionally cross lines and write things that make you uncomfortable because by stepping outside your comfort zone, you're more likely to learn and grow. That being said, there's still a place for comic relief and flashes of light in a dark story, and there's nothing wrong with fun-fest jokey writing when it fits the story. I don't know if "Death by Snail" fits your definition of fun-fest jokey writing, being more of a dark humor, but I'm looking forward to it!
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 13, 2021, 07:07:17 PM ---Gobosei is also largely based in our world as is, so it wasn't a whole new adventure world building. At minimum, Gobosei required a "how does this magic system work?" PBox required that and a whole slew of things from geography to climate to political systems to cultural norms and so on. Creating these things meant I had to learn how to research (in a different way than for writing a paper or doing a project in school) and research hard! Even things that wouldn't seem like they needed research, like "how does this magic system work," but that has been a constant fun romp in researching and has gotten me down so many rabbit holes I never knew I would end up in just based on the nature of the answer. I wish I'd kept track of my hours of research because it would be something else, as I'm sure you all know in your own adventures in researching.
And it wasn't only world building or plot elements. I wanted to have fight scenes which I'd never written before, so I watched hours of kung fu movies and sword fighting movies. I've watched fencing competitions. I know a ridiculous amount of vocabulary for parts of weapons that is not useful in any other aspect of my life; at least kung fu movies are just fun. When that Bruce Lee 30 for 30 aired last year, I actually jotted down some notes (though that isn't directly applicable to PBox, it fits this overall point). If an exhibit came to one of our museums that felt relevant, I went (outside of my love for museums). I'd include my mythology related research in this too, but that's just fun and a regular hobby that happens to tie into my love of writing. I have run the gambit of things I've researched for PBox from "plants that typically grow in x climate" to "how the body reacts to toxins and poisons" to "furniture of the Muromachi era" to "how do big things fly." And those are just four examples, in addition to specific ones I listed.
In the name of character development, I also had to learn how to portray real things in believable, nuanced, and non-hand waving ways. Nick is, essentially, an amnesiac with PTSD, so what does that actually look like in real life and not in fiction land? This includes research, but then how to turn research into believable narrative? It's all super subtle and it's only improved with time, since writing is an ongoing process. I don't know if anyone noticed this, for instance, but Nick (especially in the beginning of PBox) usually stands with his back to walls so he can see everything happening in the room and react as needed; he does it less as time goes on because he has other people to "watch his back."
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I'm always impressed by the level of research you do, as well as your attention to detail when it comes to building worlds and creating characters. I know we've already discussed the strange things we've looked up for stories, but another question could be, "What random knowledge have you acquired thanks to fanfic?" Like parts of weapons and the rules of fencing!
I also admire how much thought you put into your characters and their actions and words. It's one thing to come up with all little quirks, like Nick always standing with his back against the wall in the beginning, but then to write them in such a subtle and nuanced way so that your readers may not even notice that or realize why... That takes a certain level of sophistication . When you spend a lot of time researching and crafting a character or world, it's tempting to want to include every detail you know in the actual story. I struggle with that temptation of wanting to over-explain and include details that don't really need to be in the story just because I find them interesting.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 13, 2021, 07:07:17 PM ---While Gobosei helped me start improving on my meaningful dialogue/character interactions, PBox helped me improve on description because I did all this research and creating that couldn't just be explained with a "they were at a mall" type thing because none of it actually exists in a "this is in the real world" way. And the only way to make it exist outside of my head for anyone reading it is to write it down in a way that makes it exist. I'll admit, I am still fairly lazy with my landscapes more than my buildings, probably because the buildings don't exist outside of PBox's world, but a tree or a mountain does. I guess if anyone wants better descriptions of trees or mountains, I'll do better. I also nerd out about clothing more than I probably should, and possibly more than is necessary. I realize I've never taken much time to describe what a character looks like (especially in later chapters when the "villains of the chapter" are basically faceless even though I know exactly which one is which, though y'all don't then); I think this is a symptom of it being fanfic, I assume y'all know what everyone looks like if they're not an original character (obviously the Boys, but even NSYNC). But, I will always talk to you about Nick's eyes and smile, even more than the other Boys.
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With description, I think it's important to find a balance between "not enough" and "too much." Obviously, description is needed to help bring a story to life in the reader's head. But too much description can bog down the story, bore the reader, and put you in purple prose territory. With fantasy, I think it makes sense to save your longer descriptions for things that don't exist the same way in our world. That helps the reader picture and understand the world you've created for your story. They don't need a detailed description of every leaf on a tree. They also don't need constant reminders of what the Backstreet Boys look like, although I never mind a description of their pretty eyes or smiles. Or hair!
RokofAges75:
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 13, 2021, 07:24:49 PM ---I'm sure part of it was youth and part of it was hyperfocus on "I care about this A LOT, possibly THE MOST."
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Definitely! I'm sure it helped that I was already about halfway through BMS when I started student teaching, so it wasn't like I was writing a new story. I already knew those characters well and was committed to telling the rest of their story, so it was easy to stay inspired and write when I had time.
This was also before smartphones and social media, which have really hurt my focus. The only thing I had to distract me at that time was IM, but even that was usually helpful in the same way this forum is. Most of the people I chatted with were fellow fanfic authors or at least readers (who were reading my story), so we could encourage each other and bounce ideas off each other. There were plenty of nights when I'd have an IM window open with a friend who was also writing, and we would just use it to occasionally check in on each other. "How's the writing going?" "I've written two pages so far! You?" Then we'd send each other chapters to read and give feedback on before we posted them for the rest of the world. We never called it beta-reading, but that's basically what we were doing.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 13, 2021, 07:35:06 PM ---It probably doesn't help that I already "see the end" of PNecklace and am trying to figure out what to work on next. I am feeling better and did drink two coffees today, so maybe inspiration will still strike today.
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This is always me toward the end of a novel, too. Sometimes I know (or think I know) what idea I'm going to write next, and I get so excited about it that it's hard to stay focused on finishing the in-progress story. Other times I have no idea what idea I'm going to tackle next, and the uncertainty is what interferes with my focus. And it's dumb because even when I think I know what idea I'm going to work on, that doesn't always end up being the one I really do write next. I always figure it out eventually though.
I'm glad you're feeling better and hope the two coffees help!
--- Quote from: nicksgal on March 13, 2021, 07:35:06 PM ---Woah! Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday writing! You are really productive and motivated on this one! I'm glad you found the thing to work on with very little WADD.
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I didn't write much on any of those days - maybe Monday, which is I think when I finished Chapter 5. I only had like two paragraphs written for Chapter 6 before today. Now I'm up to 1500 words, which is fairly productive for me these days. But it's taken me the better part of the day to get to that point. I wrote all morning, then took a break to shower, eat, watch TV, and do a bit of cleaning, and then wrote more this afternoon. But I am definitely into it, which I'm happy about - I wasn't sure how that would go for my first Kevin story LOL.
nicksgal:
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on March 13, 2021, 05:42:29 PM ---I know One Direction fanfic was big a few years ago, and BTS fanfic seems to be popular on AO3. If you do any poking around, let us know your findings.
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It's weird that there's only about 1,400 BSB fanfics on AO3. I guess it makes sense since AO3 didn't exist in our fanfic heyday, but I know there's way more than 1,400 BSB fanfics out there. And it's weird to think about when fanfiction.net removed all its RPF fandoms and so we all had to go rogue, haha. One Direction and BTS fans are lucky they didn't have to deal with that. (I also have found that there are 66 fanfics about TSwift's Bad Blood music video?)
I also found out "face f-ing" is a tag? And that story is tagged "fantasy" in a way the genre is not intended (I assume, I didn't click on it) in addition to "sexual fantasy" that might be valid?
Here's a smattering of BSB fanfic info via AO3 (1,464 works) and AC for comparison (3,187 stories; it doesn't give hard numbers, so I'm listing pages -- there's about 15 stories per page and 213 pages for all stories if that helps, though obviously most stories are multi-genre):
* romance: 130 (99 pages)
* drama: 124 (108 pages)
* angst: 112 (50 pages)
* suspense: 33 (28 pages)
* horror: 21 (10 pages)
* fantasy: 20 (I'm responsible for two of them and Julie is responsible for three of them, so call it 15 without us) (11 pages)
* sci-fi: 15 (8 pages)
* medical drama: 14? (this one was hard to figure out what tag to use and I went with "medical" since there were two Julie stories, but also noticed that you didn't list Curtain Call as "medical," I assume for the spoilery nature of it) (doesn't exist as a genre on AC)
* supernatural elements: 38 (11 pages)
* action/adventure: 14 (I see me, Rose, Mare, and Tracy here)(16-19 pages, they're different genres here)
* comedy: 39 (48 pages)
* historical: 4 (2 pages)
* AU: 116 (24 pages)
* slash: 917 (12 pages); (anal sex is labeled 111 times on AO3 if anyone wanted more specific statistics)
One Direction on AO3 (63,651 works):
* romance: 2,134
* drama: 499
* angst: 7,401
* suspense: 57
* horror: 105
* fantasy: 590
* sci-fi: 585
* medical drama: 1,037
* supernatural elements: 1,587
* action/adventure: 159
* comedy: 186
* historical: 640
* AU: 8,272
* slash: 56,063 (anal sex is labeled 5,755 times if anyone wanted more specific statistics)
BTS on AO3 (152,327 works... dang that's a lot):
* romance: 11,021
* drama: 2,491
* angst: 25,129
* suspense: 296
* horror: 1,009
* fantasy: 6,367 (hey that's a lot, yay for fantasy)
* sci-fi: 1,250
* medical drama: 2,420
* supernatural elements: 9,986
* action/adventure: 1,276
* comedy: 1,505
* historical: 1,062
* AU: 11,013
* slash: 123,565 (anal sex is labeled 9,572 times if anyone wanted more specific statistics)
I guess our "Additional tags" section included more things that I would call genres and the other two had more subtags for sex (as I noted above with anal sex being listed for all three fandoms in the "additional tags" section) or character related tags. So we might define our work by genre more than the other fandoms do? I also realized I didn't initially look up historical fiction and added it in. And then I realized it was 8pm and I hadn't eaten dinner yet.
Percentage that is slash (again, if you wanted more detailed statistics):
* BSB: 63% (about 6% on AC?)
* One Direction: 88%
* BTS: 81%
I'm willing to do more math and extrapolate more data if anyone would like it. And turn AC's data into numbers of stories rather than pages of stories, I'm just being lazy.
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