Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[julilly]

Yes, I read the same thing on duplicates. I suspect most folks who cross posted won’t have done so via open door, but rather posted to A03 at the time they posted it elsewhere.

I still have reservations about forcing people to opt out, rather than having people who want to be included opt in. I fully disagree with Open Door’s stance that this is the same as moving a site to a new host. It’s not at all. It’s the duplication of copyrighted content from one database, onto another entirely new database, with a different set of terms.

After all we did to combat copyright infringement in the past, to then openly infringe on the copyright of our own member base feels disrespectful. Especially when you consider that OTW has a $500,000USD annual budget, 40.5% of which is spent on fundraising and administration (operational costs for A03 are separate). They use the influx of content from absorbing other platforms to increase the number of people they can ask for money from. Now if you’ve agreed to their terms of service and have posted content then great, you know that you’re contributing to a system built to generate funds from its membership. But I just feel icky about forcing people who might not be around anymore to be participants simply because their email might have changed.

Clearly others don’t though, so it doesn’t matter what I think! I’ll just be sure to go delete my content in advance.

[Sakabelle]

Thanks both for the clarification. While I still do not agree with this approach, I appreciate the information on how to block this from happening for my own works.

I've gone ahead and removed my fics from AC and will be contacting OTW as a precaution as well.

[nicksgal]

I think this opt-in versus opt-out is a valid point worth discussing, but I'm also wondering if these archive transfer terms are pretty boilerplate and not customized based on the original archive's wishes. Would it be very difficult for us to attempt an internal opt-in prior to whatever process is completed by Open Doors?

[Mamogirl85]

Hi everyone! And long time seeing a lot of faces! 

I'm still trying to understand the issue but, as for my works, I wouldn't mind if they get transferred to AO3, since I have been using it for years. I do think and believe that it would be a real shame if this fandom would lose part of its history, given the amount of stories that are being archivied here. But, at the same time, I do agree that it isn't fair for the authors not having a say about having their works transferred to another archive without their consents.

Cinzia

[Sakabelle]

I think this opt-in versus opt-out is a valid point worth discussing, but I'm also wondering if these archive transfer terms are pretty boilerplate and not customized based on the original archive's wishes. Would it be very difficult for us to attempt an internal opt-in prior to whatever process is completed by Open Doors?

My major concern with this is that the works will end up on AO3 and that website has a fairly large and detailed TOS that any imported works would then be subject to. The original authors do not get the chance to agree to them. For example:

Jurisdiction: The AO3 TOS, the relationship between you and the OTW, and all disputes arising out of or related to them shall be governed by the laws of the United States and specifically the State of New York, without regard to any conflict-of-law provisions. You and the OTW agree to submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located within New York County (Manhattan), New York, and to waive any objection to the laying of venue there.

This could be extremely concerning to someone who is not a resident of the USA. Which we likely do have quite a few non-Americans on AC.

I have works on AO3 but it’s just important to know that their TOS are quite strict and to auto move all of these works to an archive with much stricter TOS with an auto opt-in policy seems icky.

We also previously had done so much work to stop plagiarism and having our stories adjusted and posted without our consent, so doing this now, when so many of the authors are gone and likely not aware this is happening seems a tad hypocritical.

[RokofAges75]

It is great to see people pop back up here!  I wish we'd see more, but the fact that there's still only a few of us who have posted in this thread in the two months it's been here exemplifies the problem of using an opt-in system instead of an opt-out one, if that's even an option.  I completely understand the concern about transferring people's work to another website without their explicit permission.  I prefer to have a say in where and how my work is posted, too, and would opt out if I didn't want it on AO3.  But, no matter how much we try to reach out and publicize this move, it's unrealistic to expect that we will hear back from everyone or even the majority of authors on AC.  So does that mean we should only preserve a small fraction of the archive?  Or not try to preserve it at all?  Some of you who have moved on from the fandom may be fine with letting two decades worth of content disappear, but what about those of us who are still active in it?  Most people from AC probably fall somewhere in between - they may not be actively reading or writing fanfic anymore, but they likely still have fond memories of it and wouldn't want to see their favorite stories disappear forever.  In an ideal world, we all would have backed up our own work and favorite fics that we wanted the ability to reread in the future, just as we would have kept our old email addresses or set them to forward to our new ones so that we could be contacted about stuff like this.  But, again, it's not realistic to expect that everyone has taken those steps.

The whole point of this project is to preserve a piece of fandom history, which won't happen if we wait to get permission from everyone.  I fully support the right of authors to opt-out or request that their work be deleted from the collection if they find out about it after the fact and don't want it there.  But if they've made themselves unreachable, that's on them.  And if they've passed away, then they're beyond caring about what happens to their fanfics, unfortunately - but allowing their creative works to live on keeps their memory alive.

As to Julilly's point about forcing people to be participants in OTW's operations, no one is being forced to create an AO3 account.  Unclaimed works will be credited to the author's AC username but posted under the generic AC archivist account that Open Doors will create for us.  Here is an example of what that looks like for FictionAlley, another Harry Potter archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/fictionalley_archivist/pseuds/fictionalley_archivist  As you can see, each work is attributed to its original author's username from FictionAlley, but the usernames aren't linked to an AO3 account because the author never created one or claimed their work.  Those authors aren't being asked for donations or forced to follow terms of service that they didn't agree to.

As to the concern about plagiarism, this is completely different from what Tanja was doing when this forum first became active.  She was copying other people's stories and trying to pass them off as her own.  The point of this project is to preserve an archive while giving full credit to the original authors and allowing them to have the same control over their work that they have here.

The way I see it, people who care about what happens to their work will take the steps needed to stay in control of it, whether that means claiming it on AO3, requesting that it be removed, or opting out of the move altogether.  Whether you're still active in the fandom or not, you all stayed connected enough to see this information and cared enough to come here and share your thoughts.  People who don't care enough to do that or, at the very minimum, check their email or update their email address if it's changed, probably aren't going to care what happens to fanfics they wrote many years ago.  If they discover this collection in the future and do care, they can still claim it or request that it be deleted.  But if they don't, at least readers who do care about it can continue to enjoy it and engage with it more than they can on AC as it currently exists.

[julilly]

I’m really not looking to be convinced, I have read all of the same material you have, so don’t feel like you need to try and fill in any blanks. It’s because I read through everything that I have concerns.

For instance, the comment to me about how the author isn’t contributing to A03’s fundraising because they don’t have to make an account doesn’t really make sense to me. What’s the motivation behind wanting to move everyone’s work to a new database? To preserve history, right? So that people can continue to read it? So if you want to read it, you have to go to the website to view it, and there is regularly a large banner at the top of the page (logged in or not) asking for money, stating that the archive relies on your donations to continue, and all the power to them. But content is what brings people to A03 and they need more content to get more viewers, to get more money. Which is something a person is aware of when agreeing to their terms of service. So someone’s copyrighted work is being moved to a site they didn’t agree to participate in, to allow them to increase their content and get more donations.

For me, the concern is not about plagiarism but copyright infringement. When you ask should we not try to preserve the whole archive you’re talking about someone else’s copyrighted material that you want to take and put somewhere else without the permission of the copyright holder. That’s why I have reservations about it all. We’re still talking about removing copyrighted work from one database and moving it to a new database, with terms the copyright holder didn’t agree to.

At the end of the day it doesn’t belong to me, or you, or all of us collectively. It’s the author’s, and I don’t think it’s a bad thing to care about their ability to choose what happens to their work before it’s already happened. That is all from me!

[RokofAges75]

I'm not trying to convince you specifically, just sharing my reasons for supporting this project in spite of the questions and concerns raised, so people who are just joining the conversation can see both sides and add their thoughts.

I see your point about more content bringing more visitors and, thus, more potential donors to the website.  But, to be fair, the larger the website, the more servers and space they need to host it all.  All that costs money.  Since they can't charge us to use their site and don't allow ads like a lot of other free sites do, I personally don't mind them asking for donations periodically.

While copyright laws are murky when it comes to fanfiction, the concern about copyright infringement is valid.  But I do think there is a difference between one of us posting another author's work somewhere else without their permission (which AO3 does not allow) and Chaos, as the owner of a dying fanfic archive, giving permission for the archive to be moved to a more functional platform in order to keep it up and running.  He's taken on the responsibility of maintaining this archive, but, because the eFiction script is outdated and no longer being supported, that has become more and more challenging.  He made it clear a few years ago, after frequent outages lasting several days, that it's only a matter of time before a server update or something else kills this site.  Thankfully, it's lasted longer than a lot of us thought it would, but it's not going to last forever and is barely functional as is.  Transferring it somewhere that will allow authors to actually update their stories and interact with their readers again makes sense.  While it's true that AO3 has lengthier, more detailed terms of service than AC, its platform is similar, and its purpose is the same.

That being said, I completely agree with you that we should care about an author's ability to choose what happens to their work before it's already happened.  I don't think I would support this move if it meant giving up control of our work.  Creator control is important.  That's why Chaos came here to ask for our blessing two months ago before moving forward with this, why he's asking our opinions on the next decisions that need to be made, and why we, along with Open Doors, will do our best to spread the word about this once we have a better idea of when the import might actually begin, so authors are made aware of their options before that time.

But, in the case of authors who may miss out on the notifications, I feel this is one of those times when it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.  If they find their work on AO3 after the fact and are upset about it, that's an easy fix.  It's harder to get back the work that disappears when a site goes down for good.  I can almost guarantee there will be others who are grateful that their work was saved when that inevitably happens to AC, and, for me, that outweighs the risk of pissing people off.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that part.  Either way, I respect your opinion.