Absolute Chaos Discussion Boards
Fic Talk => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rose on August 07, 2011, 01:24:53 AM
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I feel this subject is pretty relevant because of the reading challenge. :)
I was looking at an old fantasy story I started three years ago because of the sci-fi/fantasy discussion. I stopped after awhile cause I felt I needed to change some things and basically do a rewrite. But I got lazy and just wrote other ideas instead.
Anywho, I was looking at it tonight, and I was a little appalled at my tense issues. I switched a lot between past and present, and really I forgot how that used to be a major issue in my writing. A look at my reviews and it was Julie who reviewed and pointed it out to me, reminded me of how that really got me to look close at my writing and make a point to fix that. Because it was Julie, we were friends and collaborating at that point, and I knew she was trying to help.
In three years I feel like a completely different writer than I was then.
How do you guys feel about concrit, has there been a case where you got some and it helped you turn your writing around?
Do you get offended when you see concrit? I know some people get defensive about it at times. Why?
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Aww, I'm glad to hear this! I forgot I had pointed that out to you. I'm kind of surprised I was that ballsy, because even though we all know I'm a Grammar Nazi, I usually try to avoid being a Grammar Nazi in reviews, unless the author asks for that kind of a critique. I never want to inadvertently hurt someone's feelings, especially a friend's. But I guess I knew you could take it without getting offended, and obviously, I thought the story was good enough that fixing that one thing would take it from good to great. And as someone who has been reading and sometimes proofreading your writing for the last five or so years, I can honestly say I see a huge difference too! You don't switch tenses like that at all anymore! Most people I've pointed out grammar issues to don't fix them or can't fix them because they just really don't get it, so thank the Grammar God for writers like you! There's still hope for the rest! LOL
In all seriousness, I think constructive criticism can be, as it should be, very helpful. I also know that it can be tough to hear, especially when you're a newer writer or haven't gotten much before. Once you figure out how to accept it and learn from it without getting offended, you'll be able to use it to become an even better writer. It just takes time and experience for some people to get to that point.
I think the key is asking yourself, what is this person trying to tell me, why are they bothering to tell me, and are they right? Usually people only take the time to give constructive criticism when they think the story has potential, unless they're reading it because they were required to (judging, reading challenge, author request, etc.). If the writing's hopeless, why even bother leaving a review? I only give constructive criticism when I can sandwich it between genuine compliments about the story. If I can't say something nice, I just don't say anything (the Thumper rule). As far as whether or not the reviewer is right, some concrit could be subjective, if it's based on their opinion on something that happened in the story, but if it's about grammar, plot inconsistencie s, or misinformation, chances are, they're right, and you should listen to them and fix what you can or at least try to learn from the mistake (like, when in doubt, look it up!).
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I think concrit could be a really great thing in general. Writing is such a learning process and I think helping each other out is an important part of that process.
I tend to only give concrit if someone asks for it. Like you both were saying, if there are so many mistakes grammatically I used to just click out of the story, but now as a mod I don't do that. I point out problems and have even gone so far as to take the time to post their chapter in my reply to them and show them how to fix their mistakes. Nine out of ten times they never fiix what I point out, which means they don't really care in the first place.
The tricky concrit is when you know it's subjective. You are not always going to like the same thing I do. That's why I have a huge problem with judged fanfic awards etc... Sometimes people mistake opinion for concrit. If I say I didn't like it, it was boring. Then as a writer you have a choice, you can either take that and say "Wow, I must be really boring." Or "Well, thats because she doesn't enjoy historical romance etc..." But if all you get are people telling you, "This is slow moving and boring," That's when you should consider that maybe it is?
I have learned to separate my opinion on the story for the actual quality of the fic. I might no enjoy it, but if the writing quality is there, I learn to keep some things to myself and use that thumper rule lol Unless that something is a technical thing or if they asked for it like the reading challenge.
I really don't get all that much concrit, actually. Sometimes I wish I did, especially at the beginning because like you Rose, I had the same problem at first with switching tenses and POV (I had a habit of switching from first to third a lot! lol) I am the one who would catch it though. I'm not sure if people were afriad to say something or they didn't pick it up either.
It is hard to hear something negative about your work, especially when you are really proud of it, but like everything you have to take it like a grain of salt. That's why I always say, just consider the source of the concrit. If it's coming from someone that you trust as a writer and you know they know what they're talking about, then take it to heart and try to learn for it. If it's someone who makes a ton of errors themselves and it's an issue other than grammar, like "Yous suk becuz they didn't get marryed." well then, there ya go! lol
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I think if someone were to offer me some concrit, I'd be fine with it because it would help me to put right where I've gone wrong and help me to become a better writer. I don't think I'd take it the wrong way, especially if it was coming from writers I respect. I wouldn't be OK with someone saying something like "Your story is crap" because that's not concrit but a matter of personal taste. But I wouldn't let it get to me too much :)
I'm not usually one to give concrit, but I did in the reading challenge.
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I have a strange relationship with concrit. I want to know what I can do to improve but I don't like being called out on my mistakes.
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^ I don't think anyone likes that lol
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I have a strange relationship with concrit. I want to know what I can do to improve but I don't like being called out on my mistakes.
Yeah, it can be hard to acknowledge it, but as long as the person giving it does so in a positive way, then it's not so bad.
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This is a good subject! I'm definately not one to give cocrit, just because I know I'm not the greatest writer. So, I feel I don't have the right to...if that makes sense.
I don't mind getting concrit though. Although sometimes it's scary to me...I don't want to hear that I suck at what I love doing. Fortunately, I haven't gotten told that yet. lol. When I first posted on here it was Safest Place my Kevin story and it was only 12 chapters long. Mel (Mellz Bellz) was one of the first to review and she let me know about the whole putting my story in paragraphs and seperating dialogue and even how my story was missing a lot of the needed details. So that concrit helped me out a lot, because I started to seperate my work into chapters and added more to my story. Thanks Mel. I had Julie give me pointers on Sinister Devotion about my punctation. Sadly, I'm such a hard head that I can't get it down. I definately have to go back and fix my coma crazy chapters. Thanks Julie!
Anyways, I don't mind getting concrit as long as it's not in a mean way. Cause I know that there are some people that do tend to sound mean when they give it. It also depends on who it is, it's actually exciting to get it from some of the top writers on the site! ;)
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This is a good subject! I'm definately not one to give cocrit, just because I know I'm not the greatest writer. So, I feel I don't have the right to...if that makes sense.
I don't mind getting concrit though. Although sometimes it's scary to me...I don't want to hear that I suck at what I love doing.
I have to agree with Erica. I want to know what people honestly think but at the same if they think it competely sucks, I don't really want to be told that because it will make me give up. I enjoying writing because most days my fantasy world is better than my real world. I like the reviews I get but sometimes when all they say is, "loved it" or just "cute", I'm like "that's it?" That why I appreciate the feedback i got from mare on October Rd. I mean yeah it kinda bothered me when she said it was slow in some places but overall I felt the feedback was good and will try to keep it in mind as I continue writing.
I think concrit is a love/hate relationship.
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No problem, Erika! I am always up for helping with the grammar side of things, if I'm asked, because that's an area of strength for me, and it's something that's objective. It's easy to give constructive criticism for that. It's harder when it's an area of writing that is more subjective, as most are.
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Honestly, I don't think anyone who would actually tell you "this sucks" is worth even listening to. If a writer can't come up with a more tactful way to give her opinion, she must not be that great of a writer herself. Flaming comes from a place of insecurity, the desire to make someone else feel bad about her writing to make up for one's own shortcomings. It's just another form of cyberbullying. That's why they had to get rid of anonymous reviewing and require you to log in in order to leave a review, because of people who flamed and didn't even have the balls to do it under their own name. Flaming is cowardly and classless and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Constructive criticism is different because it's meant to HELP the writer, not hurt her.
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^ exactly. That's why I always say to consider the source. If all someone can say is it's sucks with no explaination of why, than why bother listening to that? Chances are that person most likely can't even put together a complete sentence anyway. LOL
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Aww, I'm glad to hear this! I forgot I had pointed that out to you. I'm kind of surprised I was that ballsy, because even though we all know I'm a Grammar Nazi, I usually try to avoid being a Grammar Nazi in reviews, unless the author asks for that kind of a critique. I never want to inadvertently hurt someone's feelings, especially a friend's. But I guess I knew you could take it without getting offended, and obviously, I thought the story was good enough that fixing that one thing would take it from good to great. And as someone who has been reading and sometimes proofreading your writing for the last five or so years, I can honestly say I see a huge difference too! You don't switch tenses like that at all anymore! Most people I've pointed out grammar issues to don't fix them or can't fix them because they just really don't get it, so thank the Grammar God for writers like you! There's still hope for the rest! LOL
In all seriousness, I think constructive criticism can be, as it should be, very helpful. I also know that it can be tough to hear, especially when you're a newer writer or haven't gotten much before. Once you figure out how to accept it and learn from it without getting offended, you'll be able to use it to become an even better writer. It just takes time and experience for some people to get to that point.
I think the key is asking yourself, what is this person trying to tell me, why are they bothering to tell me, and are they right? Usually people only take the time to give constructive criticism when they think the story has potential, unless they're reading it because they were required to (judging, reading challenge, author request, etc.). If the writing's hopeless, why even bother leaving a review? I only give constructive criticism when I can sandwich it between genuine compliments about the story. If I can't say something nice, I just don't say anything (the Thumper rule). As far as whether or not the reviewer is right, some concrit could be subjective, if it's based on their opinion on something that happened in the story, but if it's about grammar, plot inconsistencie s, or misinformation, chances are, they're right, and you should listen to them and fix what you can or at least try to learn from the mistake (like, when in doubt, look it up!).
I did too till I saw it LOL. I am too, but I think it might've been because by that point we were pretty comfortable with each other. And thank you! It's good hearing that from a more objective source. Cause I think I'm past those issues too, but of course I'm biased haha. It's one of the first things I look for when I skim through for errors.
I think it can be too. I used to be really sensitive to it once, but as the years went by, I found myself welcoming it. Cause how else can you improve? Case in point, myself lol. I had an issue I knew about, but brushed off till a friend pointed it out to me kindly, and I finally took it seriously. So again, thank you.
I don't really give out concrit when I probably should sometimes. I always think I'm not one to say anything cause I used to do that too. But, thinking about it, that should probably be a reason TO give it I guess LOL.
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Honestly I like concrit. I wish I got more of it, it would help a Lot
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Concrit is what a new writer like me wants to hear. It feels good when you know someone is reading your story and telling you they liked it and can't wait for more update. But there are times when you wanted/needed more than that. I have so many ideas running through my mind but because English is not my native language, I find it hard to put it into words. That's why it's very important to me to know if my readers are actually undertstanding what I meant.
I would want to hear a feedback about my grammar, since I know I'm not very good at it. And with the punctuations, I sometimes find it hard to know when to use , or ; . It sometimes drive me crazy. :)
So I wish there would be people to give me concrit to help me improve, because I want to be a better writer. :)
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Ritz, I never know when to use the , or ; either :) I just put them where I think!
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I can answer the question about commas vs. semicolons! :)
Say you have two complete thoughts, such as:
1. Constructive criticism can be really helpful.
2. I wish I got more of it.
Instead of keeping them two, separate, simple sentences, you decide you want to combine them into a compound sentence. You have a couple of choices:
1. Constructive criticism can be really helpful, and I wish I got more of it.
2. Constructive criticism can be really helpful; I wish I got more of it.
In the first example, you would use a comma because you have a conjunction (and) to join the two complete thoughts together.
In the second example, the semicolon just takes the place of the period that would separate them if you made them two sentences. You don't need a conjunction when you use a semicolon.
There are lots of other uses for commas, too, but when joining sentences together like this, the rule of thumb is that if you're using a conjunction (and, but, or, since, so, etc.), stick a comma before it, and if you're not using a conjunction, use a semicolon. Which route you go is just a stylistic choice. In this case, I would prefer #2; I think it sounds better. Some writers might prefer #1. Both are right!
Hope that helps!
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Thanks Julie, that's really helpful :)
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No problem! I never used to use semicolons much, but now I love them!
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How do you guys feel about concrit, has there been a case where you got some and it helped you turn your writing around?
I love betas for this very reason...I think in a good beta relationship, you get concrit but in a way that you can actually do something about it. It has helped me so much to have a great sounding board for my ideas and someone to read and give feedback before it is out there for all to see. For me, it's sometimes frustrating to get good concrit after you have finished a project because you can't make changes and really utilize it. I am kind of feeling like this with the reading challenge we are currently doing. I love the feedback/concrit I am getting, and wish it would have come along when I was writing instead of after the fact.
Do you get offended when you see concrit? I know some people get defensive about it at times. Why?
When done in a positive, constructive way, no. Sometimes, people can be really mean about it and that isn't constructive or going to have any positive impact on a writer. I think another reason people get offended is because they don't see their own downfalls and when given honest feedback, it forces them to face a weakness that they don't want to see.
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Darby, I think that's a great point about having a beta reader to give you concrit as you're writing, compared to getting it after the story is finished. It's definitely more valuable while the story's in progress, especially if you have that person who will read and critique before you post it for the public, so you can make changes.
I know some people rewrite stories, but that's a huge pain in the ass, and while it may make the writer feel better, sometimes it actually pisses the readers off. I don't want my favorite stories being rewritten; I like them just the way they are! It's like George Lucas rereleasing the original Star Wars trilogy with new CGI effects - he may think it looks better that way, but most of the hardcore fans hated it!
I think the best thing you can do with concrit given after the fact is take it, learn from it, and try to apply it to future stories.
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I agree with this too but everytime I see the word Beta, I think of my dead fish Herbie the Happy Fish fish :( He was a beta and a damned good one!
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I agree with this too but everytime I see the word Beta, I think of my dead fish Herbie the Happy Fish fish :( He was a beta and a damned good one!
Lol!!
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Julie, thank you for your simple explanation! Sometimes it's really hard to understand what the text books are saying.... :)
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No problem, glad it made sense! :)
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it does! and you might be seeing a lot of ; from me from now on.... :)