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[RokofAges75]

It also made me think on my novel's DEI with a cast full of mostly white pretty boys since they were all based on actual boy bands originally.

I meant to comment on this and then forgot to.  Would you ever consider changing one of the guys' races in the original version for the sake of diversity?  

If you don't want to change any of their races, but don't want to be criticized for writing about a cast full of white pretty boys, you could just be vague enough with your descriptions to leave it up to readers' interpretation s as to what race the characters are.  Obviously if you describe Nick as having blond hair and blue eyes, they will assume he's a white guy, but if you just describe AJ and Howie as having dark hair and eyes, they could be any race.  That wouldn't necessarily make your story more diverse or inclusive, but at least no one could say with certainty that they are all white.  And if it helps, I've always pictured Minako as being Japanese-American when you talk about her because of her name, even though I think you said once that she wasn't.

All that being said, while I think diversity and inclusion are important, I also think it's fine to write a novel about five white pretty boys, whether they were inspired by a boyband or not.  I definitely don't think writers should feel pressured to include "token" characters of other races, sexual identities, abilities, etc. just for the sake of diversity.  Write according to your vision and what makes the most sense for your story.

[RokofAges75]

Also, why did seventeen-year-old me want to psychologicall y torture her beloved Nick in such a gruesome way?

LOL Why do any of us torture our beloved Nick (or any of the boys) in such ways?  We could discuss this question forever.

I know when I was younger, "do the Boys read believably older than me?" and "do the Boys read believably as... well boys?" were questions I often asked myself. But I didn't really stress about it. Now when I look back, it's pretty noticeable. At least "don't read older," the jury is still out on "believably as boys," so I guess they read believably as male?

I'm sure these are questions many of us asked ourselves too, especially those of us who grew up without brothers LOL.  The good news is that since most of our readers are also female, it probably doesn't matter much.

No, Lurlene! It's like she sensed someone was coming into her niche market on "crying and dying" besides Nicholas Sparks, lol. Do any of his books feature male protagonists being sick either? I can't think of one. I'm bummed you read it and have a more mature view of Lurlene instead of looking back with nostalgia and joy, but it's good you read it just to see how similar they were.

To answer your Nicholas Sparks question, not that I know of.  I went through a phase where I read several of his books in a row in my late teens/early twenties, but after so many, I realized they were all basically the same and haven't read one since LOL.

Lurlene and I must have been on the same wavelength for a while there because she also wrote a book about a heart transplant and cellular memory after I had started Secrets of the Heart, which is about the same thing.  Must be payback for all the times I borrowed ideas from her books in my teenybopper days LOL.  I read that book too and was relieved (and proud) that I liked mine better.  I will always look back on her older books with nostalgia and joy, but they were definitely written for sentimental tweens, not cynical adults. 

It definitely ruined my joy at seeing books about demons for half a day, lol. I was too focused on whether I would have to change Nick's name. My one non-negotiable outside of, you know, the non-fanfic elements I made up myself, lol.

I think Nick is a common enough name that no one could accuse you of copying the other book just for using the same name.  It would be different if you called your main character Katniss or something LOL.

I think memoirs are great for that, especially because you can take different accounts and weave them together with your own ideas to create a unique experience, like "this seems pretty standard, but these things vary."

Absolutely!  The first one I read was written by a woman, and now I'm reading one written by a guy, so it's been nice to get a male perspective.  I spent the morning revising to add in a couple of small ideas I got from reading that this week, so it's already been helpful.

Bridge to Terabitha was my big adult fear book, lol. I think my melt down about it also turned into a meltdown about The Last Unicorn. Such a melodramatic special snowflake as a child, lol. I'm a bit of a hypochondirac myself, but I blame my mother for that. It's more like "leaping to the worst possible conclusion first" for everything, it's just easy to do that with medical things because of Web MD always saying "and I guess it could be cancer."

Aww, Bridge to Terabithia!  I actually didn't read that book until my children's lit class in college.  The professor was this sweet old lady who reminded me of my grandma, and most of the class was her reading books aloud to us and discussing them.  She read that entire book to us and made us cry.  I use it with my high readers in fourth grade for literature discussion groups some years, and they usually love it too.

Yep, I am the same way, and yes, never Google symptoms - it could always be cancer LOL.

[RokofAges75]

Yeah, my 60,000 words is not working out and that's only a third of this novel, lol. I think it was easier in the beginning because everything was fresh and new and even if I wrote ahead, it was still coming up soon. Now there's nothing I want to write ahead in it. And there's more to do outside of novel writing than I had in November. Maybe I need to rewatch last season's Masked Singer and/or DWTS. Get some of the early magic back.

All that makes sense.  Starting a story is easy; sticking with it is the hard part.  But I know you will; you're too dedicated to this idea not to.  It's okay to slow down; that's only natural.  It's also harder to keep up the kind of pace you had in the beginning as you get busier.  Aside from summer for us teachers, winter is my favorite season to write because it's easier to just stay home and be cozy when it's dark and cold all the time.  Now I feel guilty that I'm not outside doing yard work or going on a walk or enjoying the spring weather on nice days because that's what normal people do LOL.  Meanwhile, I'm a reclusive, nocturnal creature who's allergic to pollen and sunlight and loves rain and thunderstorms.

I wonder if stories with more LGBTQ representation vary it a little more. I was also thinking that two girls and a guy is rare, but I can't even think of one that's a girl and a guy lusting over the same girl/guy or even three folks of the same gender. Maybe I'd mind it less if the dynamics switched up a bit.

That would be one way to change it up - have someone who was bisexual in the center, trying to choose between a guy and a girl.  I'm sure that's been done, but I can't think of an example offhand.  Three people of the same gender would work too.  Definitely not as common as two guys lusting after a girl.

I was exhausted yesterday, I even took a nap, so I woke up around 8am feeling so refreshed and thinking it would be a productive day. Then I went to make my coffee...

I suspected my coffee maker was on its last legs because it was doing about half the coffee I had prepared it for yesterday and sure enough, there was still water that hadn't drained, but the drip tray was full of water that wasn't there yesterday. Sigh... Thankfully, I had another keurig coffee maker in the garage that was brand new because it was a gift to use in my classroom, but I never took it to work because coffee maker and pre-Ks sounded like a disaster waiting to happen. But then it took half an hour to set up after digging it out of the garage. And this was on top of the half hour I'd already spent washing dishes because I'd wanted coffee and my Backstreet Boys mug was dirty.

I'm now on my second cup of coffee and still haven't written a thing, but I for sure earned my coffee today. The streak still lives from yesterday and I think I'm finally ready to get started. Hope everyone else's writing is going more smoothly!

Sorry about your Keurig, but glad you had a backup handy!  You definitely earned your two cups of coffee.

I wrote about 500 words this morning, but it was all revisions to previous chapters.  Hoping to add more to my current chapter this evening.  I hope you have better luck writing tonight!

[nicksgal]

I meant to comment on this and then forgot to.  Would you ever consider changing one of the guys' races in the original version for the sake of diversity?

If you don't want to change any of their races, but don't want to be criticized for writing about a cast full of white pretty boys, you could just be vague enough with your descriptions to leave it up to readers' interpretation s as to what race the characters are.  Obviously if you describe Nick as having blond hair and blue eyes, they will assume he's a white guy, but if you just describe AJ and Howie as having dark hair and eyes, they could be any race.  That wouldn't necessarily make your story more diverse or inclusive, but at least no one could say with certainty that they are all white.  And if it helps, I've always pictured Minako as being Japanese-American when you talk about her because of her name, even though I think you said once that she wasn't.

Things get lost in the walls of text, lol.

You know, I've thought about it, but then it also leads me back to your last comment that you always pictured Minako being Japanese-American just based on her name. The fear of misrepresentin g a culture at best or cultural appropriation at worst, so much to the point that I've also thought about changing her name to something more "generically American" sounding to avoid that since I have no authority on what it's like to be Japanese-American. The fear is especially prevalent with everything going on these days. I could go the complete opposite direction and actively give her attributes of my own mixed heritage, but I also know next to nothing about my own cultural traditions and associate much more with my "whiteness" than my "Native Americanness," to the point that it's something I only vaguely consider a part of my identity, despite only being a couple of generations (and several states) removed. Although I'm sure things like that are often struggles for other people with mixed heritage, but overall race isn't really a focus in the story outside of the whole "in general, humans are anti-demon" thing (though in the end, that has less to do with anything race-related and more to do with something I won't spoil here quite yet).

There's something to be said for the vague vagueness of "brown hair and brown eyes" (AJ and Howie were a lot of why I said "mostly white" originally rather than just "white") but then I also worry if people will care that diversity is or isn't there. Less for the diversity aspect necessarily and more that there's something really powerful in meaningful representation that I do think is important to include, especially with our frequent POV character Nick just being as is (though I wouldn't call him a poster kid for the white cis-gender heteronormativ e patriarchy or anything). I've also been actively trying to give the ladies in the book more badass things to do to combat fantasy stereotypes that "girls don't get cool big swords," but I feel like this had less to do with them originally and more to do with giving the Boys several cool things to do in a Backstreet Boys fanfic that were much cooler than any original characters, or NSYNC because everybody hates them anyway. That's the real bias in this story, lol.

All that being said, while I think diversity and inclusion are important, I also think it's fine to write a novel about five white pretty boys, whether they were inspired by a boyband or not.  I definitely don't think writers should feel pressured to include "token" characters of other races, sexual identities, abilities, etc. just for the sake of diversity.  Write according to your vision and what makes the most sense for your story.

I wouldn't want any of the characters to be a "token" anything because the idea of including diversity just to tick a diversity box also bothers me, but like I said, I also want to be inclusive for meaningful representation . I guess it's something I worry about more as I near the rest of the cast being introduced and having to solidify who they are as original characters and not "and then a Howie appeared and everyone was surprised because he had a meaningful role so early in the story." (Which I think is less prevalent these days than it was in 2005, lol.) Realistically, I could give them all blue skin and stop worrying about it, but I like to agonize over the details, lol.

[RokofAges75]

She did leave the show

[RokofAges75]

You know, I've thought about it, but then it also leads me back to your last comment that you always pictured Minako being Japanese-American just based on her name. The fear of misrepresentin g a culture at best or cultural appropriation at worst, so much to the point that I've also thought about changing her name to something more "generically American" sounding to avoid that since I have no authority on what it's like to be Japanese-American. The fear is especially prevalent with everything going on these days. I could go the complete opposite direction and actively give her attributes of my own mixed heritage, but I also know next to nothing about my own cultural traditions and associate much more with my "whiteness" than my "Native Americanness," to the point that it's something I only vaguely consider a part of my identity, despite only being a couple of generations (and several states) removed. Although I'm sure things like that are often struggles for other people with mixed heritage, but overall race isn't really a focus in the story outside of the whole "in general, humans are anti-demon" thing (though in the end, that has less to do with anything race-related and more to do with something I won't spoil here quite yet).

I hear you.  It's a complex issue because, on one hand, you want to be inclusive and have meaningful representation, but on the other hand, as a heterosexual cis white female, you can't fully understand what it's like to be, say, a gay or trans black person.  That's not to say you can't try, because we all write things we don't know by doing researching, but then there's the risk of being accused of stereotyping or appropriation.  But then if you only write straight white characters, you're not being diverse enough.  It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you keeping Minako's name, even if she doesn't have Japanese ancestry.  Names come from all different cultures.  You could always include an anecdote in the story that explains how she got her name, if you haven't already.

[nicksgal]

LOL Why do any of us torture our beloved Nick (or any of the boys) in such ways?  We could discuss this question forever.

We have discussed it forever, lol. I think it's up there with "Why are some genres more popular than others?" and "Why don't people review as much as they read?" for discussions had many times over several years. Haven't we settled on the answer that "we like exploring dark things and like writing about the Backstreet Boys"? lol

I'm sure these are questions many of us asked ourselves too, especially those of us who grew up without brothers LOL.  The good news is that since most of our readers are also female, it probably doesn't matter much.

You're right, I didn't think about it too much unless the Boys very blatantly sounded like thirteen-year-old girls, which I was guilty of at least once. Thank goodness we all start from somewhere, lol.

To answer your Nicholas Sparks question, not that I know of.  I went through a phase where I read several of his books in a row in my late teens/early twenties, but after so many, I realized they were all basically the same and haven't read one since LOL.

Lurlene and I must have been on the same wavelength for a while there because she also wrote a book about a heart transplant and cellular memory after I had started Secrets of the Heart, which is about the same thing.  Must be payback for all the times I borrowed ideas from her books in my teenybopper days LOL.  I read that book too and was relieved (and proud) that I liked mine better.  I will always look back on her older books with nostalgia and joy, but they were definitely written for sentimental tweens, not cynical adults.

After the next one I read was just like A Walk to Remember, I decided I couldn't read another novel of his. I couldn't even tell you which other one I read now.

Maybe Lurlene read your fanfics and wanted revenge for borrowing her ideas, lol. I'm glad it didn't destroy your joy despite liking your writing better. Now write a "crying and dying" for cynical adults.

I think Nick is a common enough name that no one could accuse you of copying the other book just for using the same name.  It would be different if you called your main character Katniss or something LOL.

You're right, I should probably just change Nick's name to Katniss and stop worrying about this.

Absolutely!  The first one I read was written by a woman, and now I'm reading one written by a guy, so it's been nice to get a male perspective.  I spent the morning revising to add in a couple of small ideas I got from reading that this week, so it's already been helpful.

That's great! I'm glad you're getting a lot of diverse perspectives and that it's helping with your revisions.

Aww, Bridge to Terabithia!  I actually didn't read that book until my children's lit class in college.  The professor was this sweet old lady who reminded me of my grandma, and most of the class was her reading books aloud to us and discussing them.  She read that entire book to us and made us cry.  I use it with my high readers in fourth grade for literature discussion groups some years, and they usually love it too.

Yep, I am the same way, and yes, never Google symptoms - it could always be cancer LOL.

Aw, I love that she did read alouds to you all. My professor for my literacy course read tons of books aloud to us, but they were usually picture books, not chapter books. She also called us "boys and girls" all the time, which... irked me, but would be fine for teaching children. There's something really joyful about being read aloud to that I miss as an adult. Glad the kiddos enjoy it, it's a great one, albeit sad.

I know this and I still google them anyway and think "well gosh, it could be cancer, guess I'll agonize over that now." lol

[nicksgal]

All that makes sense.  Starting a story is easy; sticking with it is the hard part.  But I know you will; you're too dedicated to this idea not to.  It's okay to slow down; that's only natural.  It's also harder to keep up the kind of pace you had in the beginning as you get busier.  Aside from summer for us teachers, winter is my favorite season to write because it's easier to just stay home and be cozy when it's dark and cold all the time.  Now I feel guilty that I'm not outside doing yard work or going on a walk or enjoying the spring weather on nice days because that's what normal people do LOL.  Meanwhile, I'm a reclusive, nocturnal creature who's allergic to pollen and sunlight and loves rain and thunderstorms.

You're right, the "sticking to it" is where I often feel tested, and I'm sure lots of other writers do too. I will get there slowly but surely! I also feel guilty not being outside and just sitting and writing. I don't think sitting outside and writing would make that guilt go away though. I think what's getting me now is that with restrictions lightening up, I could go back to doing something every weekend, or I could sit and write inside the house. I was very nocturnal in November, now I'm back to being Team Afternoon, lol.

That would be one way to change it up - have someone who was bisexual in the center, trying to choose between a guy and a girl.  I'm sure that's been done, but I can't think of an example offhand.  Three people of the same gender would work too.  Definitely not as common as two guys lusting after a girl.

I can't either. Then I think that it could still be just as annoying as all other love triangles.

Sorry about your Keurig, but glad you had a backup handy!  You definitely earned your two cups of coffee.

It was a stroke of good fortune and my two coffees were delicious.

I've written about 1,000 words so far today (and post-noon), so I'm feeling a bit more productive. I even got a Howie "etcetera, etcetera, ecetera" in, so jokes are going great, lol. Even though it's been a little bit on two different chapters, I'm hoping that inspiration sticks longer into the evening, though I've been here posting long notes for the past hour or so, lol.

I wrote about 500 words this morning, but it was all revisions to previous chapters.  Hoping to add more to my current chapter this evening.  I hope you have better luck writing tonight!

Revisions are good, some of my words were revisions too. I hope that you do get some more added to your current chapter as well!

[RokofAges75]

We have discussed it forever, lol. I think it's up there with "Why are some genres more popular than others?" and "Why don't people review as much as they read?" for discussions had many times over several years. Haven't we settled on the answer that "we like exploring dark things and like writing about the Backstreet Boys"? lol

Pretty much!

After the next one I read was just like A Walk to Remember, I decided I couldn't read another novel of his. I couldn't even tell you which other one I read now.

Maybe Lurlene read your fanfics and wanted revenge for borrowing her ideas, lol. I'm glad it didn't destroy your joy despite liking your writing better. Now write a "crying and dying" for cynical adults.

My favorite one I read by him was called "The Guardian," and I can't believe they've never made it into a movie.  It was a romance set in North Carolina like all his other books, but there was also a suspense storyline and a bit of a supernatural element that made it different from the others.

LOL I would argue that many of my fanfics are "crying and dying books" for cynical adults that just happen to star the Backstreet Boys.  Although I guess most of them are pretty sentimental too.

Aw, I love that she did read alouds to you all. My professor for my literacy course read tons of books aloud to us, but they were usually picture books, not chapter books. She also called us "boys and girls" all the time, which... irked me, but would be fine for teaching children. There's something really joyful about being read aloud to that I miss as an adult. Glad the kiddos enjoy it, it's a great one, albeit sad.

Yes!  I'm glad you got to enjoy some read alouds in college too.  "Boys and girls" - that's funny that she called you that in college!  Kind of cute, but I could always see it being annoying.

[nicksgal]

I hear you.  It's a complex issue because, on one hand, you want to be inclusive and have meaningful representation, but on the other hand, as a heterosexual cis white female, you can't fully understand what it's like to be, say, a gay or trans black person.  That's not to say you can't try, because we all write things we don't know by doing researching, but then there's the risk of being accused of stereotyping or appropriation.  But then if you only write straight white characters, you're not being diverse enough.  It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You're exactly right as well. It's the complexity of it that nags at me. I've even thought about seeking out people read it with a request to look at DEI stuff, but I have also started my non-BSB circle with two friends who are female. So then I think, do I need a guy to read this? Is that where I start? And then I ultimately come back to maybe I should just focus on re-writing this thing first and then worry about these complex issues more once it's been stripped of its fanficness.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you keeping Minako's name, even if she doesn't have Japanese ancestry.  Names come from all different cultures.  You could always include an anecdote in the story that explains how she got her name, if you haven't already.

I thought about that too or doing the appropriate research/interviewing/etcetera. I also pondered that maybe she is mixed heritage, but her parent who is present isn't the one who is Japanese/Japanese-American because I do understand a disconnect from heritage to a degree.

But then there's a bunch of other things I have to make a lot less "blatantly Asian-influenced in origin" during the rewrite too, so this brings me back to "write it, then worry about complex issues."

[nicksgal]

My favorite one I read by him was called "The Guardian," and I can't believe they've never made it into a movie.  It was a romance set in North Carolina like all his other books, but there was also a suspense storyline and a bit of a supernatural element that made it different from the others.

Oh that does sound interesting! I don't peg him for suspense or supernatural elements. "Set in North Carolina" though, that's a hallmark of a Sparks novel, lol. Perhaps I'll look into that one the next time I go on a reading binge.

LOL I would argue that many of my fanfics are "crying and dying books" for cynical adults that just happen to star the Backstreet Boys.  Although I guess most of them are pretty sentimental too.

It's that kind of niche market that we need; more books should appeal to adults and star the Backstreet Boys, lol. You can be cynical and sentimental. I would argue that a bit of sentimentality is required to cut through the cynicism.

[RokofAges75]

You're exactly right as well. It's the complexity of it that nags at me. I've even thought about seeking out people read it with a request to look at DEI stuff, but I have also started my non-BSB circle with two friends who are female. So then I think, do I need a guy to read this? Is that where I start? And then I ultimately come back to maybe I should just focus on re-writing this thing first and then worry about these complex issues more once it's been stripped of its fanficness.

I thought about that too or doing the appropriate research/interviewing/etcetera. I also pondered that maybe she is mixed heritage, but her parent who is present isn't the one who is Japanese/Japanese-American because I do understand a disconnect from heritage to a degree.

But then there's a bunch of other things I have to make a lot less "blatantly Asian-influenced in origin" during the rewrite too, so this brings me back to "write it, then worry about complex issues."

It's a lot to think about!  But I agree - get a draft written first, and you can always go back and edit later.  If you were to move forward with the publication process, a professional editor could give their opinion on issues of representation and help you with any parts that are problematic.

The nice part about writing fanfic is that our readers expect the stories to be mostly about five white guys, so diversity is not so much of an issue.

[RokofAges75]

Oh that does sound interesting! I don't peg him for suspense or supernatural elements. "Set in North Carolina" though, that's a hallmark of a Sparks novel, lol. Perhaps I'll look into that one the next time I go on a reading binge.

It's that kind of niche market that we need; more books should appeal to adults and star the Backstreet Boys, lol. You can be cynical and sentimental. I would argue that a bit of sentimentality is required to cut through the cynicism.

Yeah, that's the only one of his books I enjoyed enough to read twice.  It's been years, but I remember really liking it.

I agree about sentimentality and cynicism.  My stories have gotten darker and less cheesy as I've matured, but even the darkest ones still have those lighthearted scenes that are meant to be touching and make you go "Aww."  It can't all be brutal and depressing when you're reading a story about BSB LOL.

[nicksgal]

It's a lot to think about!  But I agree - get a draft written first, and you can always go back and edit later.  If you were to move forward with the publication process, a professional editor could give their opinion on issues of representation and help you with any parts that are problematic.

The nice part about writing fanfic is that our readers expect the stories to be mostly about five white guys, so diversity is not so much of an issue.

You're definitely right, they do pay people to put the best possible product out there once it's picked up (and will tell you exactly what is problematic). Gotta love that kind of criticism for money, lol.

lol, I can't imagine anyone is out there going "Oh no, another Backstreet Boys fanfic where they're all mostly white guys! Just once I want one of them to be a different gender or race. At least the slash fanfics have some diversity!" I say this jokingly, but I'm sure there's a non-porn version of rule #34 and these stories do exist.

[nicksgal]

Yeah, that's the only one of his books I enjoyed enough to read twice.  It's been years, but I remember really liking it.

High praise for a book to be read more than once. I will make note of this the next time I'm in a Sparks-type novel mood.

I agree about sentimentality and cynicism.  My stories have gotten darker and less cheesy as I've matured, but even the darkest ones still have those lighthearted scenes that are meant to be touching and make you go "Aww."  It can't all be brutal and depressing when you're reading a story about BSB LOL.

I live for the cheesy and sweet moments in the dark times. You've got to have them, especially because the Boys have a certain degree of cheesiness inherent in them. And beg to have "aww" said about them.

On that note of degree of cheesiness, I actually did take the challenge to feature a scene with my dreaded love triangle trope today. Please enjoy:

[Brian] smiled, but clutched his heart as he gaped at her. “How could you betray me like this! You’d let me forget Nick? We don’t have to be rivals for his affections, Minako! We can share him!” He started laughing.

“Does he want to be shared?” Minako giggled.

“Think of all of our rituals, worthless without me! Who else would tell you and Nick goodnight before you go to bed or that they love you in the afternoon? What about when the sun is up in the morning?”

“Sure that first one, but you just decided that second one is a ritual after it happened a few days ago.”

“Length of time doesn’t matter!”

“And is that last one even a ritual, Brian? You poke me with your staff and say ‘the sun is up,’ then I hide under the blankets and groan. So you poke Nick and he either says ‘Bri-an…’” Despite laughing, Minako attempted making her voice deeper as she spoke for Nick. “...or does nothing because he’s still sleeping.

“That’s a terrible impression of Nick’s voice! It’s obviously ‘Bri-an.’” Contrary to Minako, Brian made his voice higher pitched. “And of course it’s a ritual. We do it every day.”

lol. I've gotten an approximated "and stuff like that" plus a ^{"Hi, I'm Nick"} impression in today. I'm on a roll with BSB jokes, clearly. (Also, please excuse my underline, it's italics in the document, but italics don't translate to quotes here.)

Now that we've talked about PBox&Co broadly today, let's discuss MBK broadly (or someone else's story) from the jumping off point of genre and tropes. Express your concerns or ideas about whatever!