Absolute Chaos Discussion Boards
Fic Talk => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaos on November 12, 2024, 01:55:50 PM
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I have been approached by the OTW (Opendoors - Organization for Transformative Works) https://opendoors.transformativeworks.org/en/ about preserving the Absolute Chaos Archive. I'm thinking this would be a really good idea because once again my server is at the End of Support and needs to be upgraded to yet another new version. I have never been able to fix the archive since the last upgrade, and it's only gotten further out of support with no likely update of the EFiction software.
How do you all feel about such a move? I would keep this archive (and this message board) alive as long as possible (this board MUCH easier as the software can be updated...) BUT knowing that the efiction archive is unlikely to ever be "working" again for updating, etc, and could possibly become lost to the ether with another server upgrade (or two) that it'd be great to have as much of it backed up elsewhere as possible.
I'm not sure how many of you all are still around, but if you are here and see this, please let me know your feelings on the subject. I think that when they start importing the site to their project that they reach out to any authors in the archive to offer them the opportunity to opt out or to make anonymous any works, but honestly I'm not sure how exactly that works or what happens with the authors with outdated email addresses in the archive, and/or who are no longer part of fandom or don't respond.
I'd hate to see all these stories disappear, but can make no guarantees that I'll be able to preserve them (except via a database that would be saved in my back-up drives, but that wouldn't really make them available to others...).
Let me know if you have good reasons not to move forward with letting OTW (they work hand-in-hand with AO3) help preserve these stories. Or if you have any other thoughts about the preservation project.
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I think it’s a great idea.
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I think it's a good idea
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Tracy couldn't log on, but she also thinks it's fine. She had a good question. Will our reviews also be saved to the archive or will they be lost?
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I also think it's a great idea! I would hate to see AC disappear for good.
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The ball is very slowly starting to roll on this, and there are some decisions to make. I'm going to post the first decision here because I don't think it's actually mine to make. I really won't have the time to commit to be the "owner" of the collection if we choose to go that route. So, I'd give first option to Mare if she wants to step in as an owner, but would also open up the idea to any others of you guys who are still here who might be interested in moderating or owning the collection. If there isn't a desire to reopen the collection for new works and/or no one wants to take on the moderating, we can give ownership of the collection to OpenDoors and they deal with all of the creator requests, etc.
Moderating the Collection
Do you want to continue to own (i.e. be in charge of) the AO3 collection after the import? (This would ensure that you would have the authority to delete, transfer, or anonymize works upon creator request. It would also mean that the archivist email we will set up, to which most users send their queries about claiming or deleting their works, would forward to your email address after the import.)
If so, would you like the AO3 collection to be open or closed to new works? (Please note that the collection needs to be closed if Open Doors is the collection owner.)
If open, do you want the collection to be moderated (i.e. new submissions must be approved)? If so, would you be the moderator, or would you find someone else?
If you want to own and/or moderate the AO3 collection, what is the name of the AO3 account from which you would like to do so?
If you don’t already have or intend to create your own AO3 account, you’ll be able to own and/or moderate the collection from the archivist account that we will create for you.
If you want to own the AO3 collection, are you comfortable with Open Doors making changes to the collection (e.g., transferring or deleting works) if creators contact us directly with requests, or would you like Open Doors to forward all creator requests we receive to you?
If Open Doors owns the collection, we will take care of all creator requests by default; the above question only applies if you want to be the collection owner.
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Wow, I'm not sure I'm up for that job. To be honest, I hardly understood most of that. I'm not tech savy enough to own anything internet related. I do think it's a great idea though and I'd be willing to help whoever decides to do this when and if I can. So, this would mean that the entire AC archive would all transfer over to AO3 as one account? As if it's just an author posting a thousand stories? I still don't fully even understand how AO3 works, and I've been on there for a hot minute.
I enjoy moderating this message board. This is more my speed. lol
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I'm not familiar enough to say how it works exactly, but my understanding is that the stories might get imported into their archive under an archive account, but the authors are all contacted (if possible since the addresses are old) and can choose to have the stories moved to their own accounts, or can ask the stories to be removed or set to anonymous.
I'd be inclined to let the Open Doors people take "ownership", but that will mean that no new works can be added to the collection--which since they haven't been added to in a few years, probably won't make a big difference. I just didn't want to declare that for all if there is someone interested in reviving it.
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Thanks for the update, Ash! I would be willing to help with this if we decide we want to retain control over the collection. From my understanding of what you posted, this would only really matter if we want to leave it open to new submissions. Either way, authors would still be able to claim their old stories or request that they be deleted or made anonymous. So I guess I'm wondering if anyone is really interested in keeping the collection open. While I love the idea of being able to access and interact with AC stories on AO3, I personally don't see the point of posting new stories in an AC collection on AO3. But that's just my opinion.
If others do want to leave it open or want one of us to retain control, I'll throw my name in the ring as a potential owner and/or moderator. I have the same username on AO3, RokofAges75. I created a couple of small collections on AO3 for people who contributed to 1000 Ways to Kill Nick Carter and its spinoff to post their stories in, so I'm at least familiar with how they work. For Mare and anyone else wondering, this is what a collection looks like: https://archiveofourown.org/collections/1000WaystoKillNickCarter/works It's literally just a list of stories like you would see for any fandom or tag, and when you click on one, you'll see the name of the collection included below the tags and all that to link it back to the other works in that collection. Obviously, the AC collection would be a lot bigger.
If no one cares about leaving it open to submissions, I'm okay with letting Open Doors take ownership and handle creator requests.
Edit: After thinking more about this, I do want one of us to retain control over the collection and keep it open, at least temporarily. See my posts below for the reasons why.
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Just out of curiosity... I'm assuming all that would transfer from AC to AO3 is the stories themselves, not the reviews/comments people left on AC. Do you know if that's correct? I wish the reviews would be transferred too, but I realize that's not really the point of archiving works.
I'm just thinking ahead of what to do with the duplicates of the old stories I've already posted on AO3 myself. It seems pointless to have multiple versions of the same story on AO3, unless the old reviews were also posted as comments. If not, I'd be more inclined to delete the AC versions of my stories and keep the ones that have already accrued stats in my account on AO3. The only problem I foresee with that is that, if we give up control of the collection and make it closed, then my works wouldn't be included in the AC collection, which would be kinda sad if/when the real AC site goes down for good. It would be nice to be able to add the stories I've already reposted on AO3 to the AC collection so they are still included along with everyone else's. That makes me more inclined to think one of us should retain ownership and leave it open for at least a little while, for anyone else who wants to do the same. There may not be many of us left who still post on the forum, but there are several others, like Tracy, Cinzia, and Rose, who also moved to AO3 years ago and may be faced with the same dilemma. What are everyone else's thoughts on this?
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I'm glad you volunteered. I was hoping you would. I know you'll be excellent at it!
Personally, I think if you are going to transfer the whole archive, then it might as well be the old archive with everything, even the ones who, like me, have transferred stuff over to AO3. I know it might seem redundant, but like you said, it might also prove nostalgic for it to be included in two places. I know I moved a lot of my stories over a while ago but not all. I think if we add this other layer on to things, it'll just get confusing and honestly, I do believe at this point, only the slimmest of us actually care.
I think maybe if you made a poll on twitter, since I know some people, like Tracy have trouble logging onto here, to ask their thoughts. It would make more sense for you to do this since I believe pretty much all my BSB people stopped following me after I left the fandom. I think the better question is, what if people don't want their stories to make it onto another site? There might be more than a handful of people who would rather their stuff be deleted then moved. But again, that opens up even more chaos.
Another question worth asking, is do you move the stories that have never been completed? There are So many stories that were never finished and barring some kind of miracle never will be. Should you go through the trouble of including all of those? I personally think it would be a waste of time to do that.
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Thanks!
From my understanding, everything will automatically get transferred (including duplicates and unfinished stories) by Open Doors, the group that owns AO3. It will be up to authors to request their works get deleted if they don't want them to be on AO3. Correct me if I'm wrong, Ash, but I'm not sure we are able to pick and choose what gets moved ahead of time. But if one of us retains control of the collection, we would have the ability to delete works from it after the fact. I wouldn't feel comfortable deleting unfinished works without the author's permission, though. Some people may still want to read them for the nostalgia.
As far as the duplicates go, if you claim them as your work, they would also appear under your works in your own account, so you would have two different copies of the stories you already moved to AO3. Personally, I would want to claim mine, so they would be attributed to me and I would get the comments and kudos, but I wouldn't want to have two of the same story junking up my account. I would rather have the ability to delete the AC versions from the collection and add the better-edited versions that have already accumulated comments and kudos on AO3 to the collection in their place. That's my main reason for wanting to retain control over the collection and leave it open for at least a little while, so anyone else in the same situation can do the same if they want to.
A poll on Twitter is not a bad idea, although I'm not sure what exactly to ask or how to phrase it in a concise way. I did not get a response to my tweet yesterday from anyone affected by this, and no one else has posted here, which makes me wonder if anyone else even saw it or cares.
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Okay so first off, I think Julie is perfect for this. Second, even though I don't actively post fanfic anymore, I'd want to maybe clean up by not having doubles so I get what you mean there. Third, I think unfinished stories should be moved. They're unfinished but it's like lost media if they vanish forever.
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Thanks for weighing in! And yes, that's my concern with the unfinished stories too. Some writers don't keep back-ups after they move on from the fandom, so if they only exist on AC, and AC goes down, they could disappear forever. You never know when someone (including the author) might want to access them again someday and possibly even finish them, as unlikely as that may seem. We've all seen how people who have been away from the fandom for years randomly pop back in sometimes. I think it's good to preserve as much content as possible. Our fandom already lost so many old fics when Geocities went down.
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Just shows I still didn't really understand lol so, when the archive moves over, all those stories will potentially be listed in two places. The actual AC archive and then your own story page as well? But once it's moved, then you (Julie) would be the only person that could delete or change the stories in the archive so that's why it would make sense for the duplicate stories to be deleted over at AC before that happens? Is that correct? But...That would only happen if your username is the same at both places though, right? Because I am Mare here but because that's such a common name, I had to change it on AO3 so I'm egypt18015 there. In that case, none of the ones by Mare would end up on Egypt's page?
This is what I would suggest, if everything I said is correct, we put up an announcement somewhere. Maybe in the news section of the actual site, twitter and also on here that:
On this date, (We should give them a deadline of some kind, even if we don't know when this is happening for sure) we will be moving this entire archive over to AO3. If you do not wish to have your stories included on the archive, please go to AC and delete any stories you do not wish to be moved. Just an FYI, if you have already moved your stuff over to AO3 with the same username, you will find them duplicated on your page, so if you don't want that to happen, you should delete the AC one.
Something like that? This way, we have given ample warning and people who do still occasionally check the site, or this forum will also be aware. Dee and Tracey? If you can't log in, can you still see these posts? I'll ask that on twitter too.
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My interpretation is that Absolute Chaos will continue to stay online, as is, for as long as possible (or as long as Ash continues to renew the domain). What Open Doors does is preserve old, "at-risk" archive sites like AC by importing all the stories into a collection on AO3. That way, if and when the original site goes down, the stories are preserved somewhere else and don't disappear. I found a list of all the other archives they have done this with so far: https://opendoors.transformativeworks.org/en/online-archives/ If you click on MuggleNet Fanfiction, for example, you get a link to its collection on AO3: https://archiveofourown.org/collections/mugglenetfanfiction This is a good example of what it will look like.
I also found this announcement from MuggleNet that explains the process in more detail: https://archiveofourown.org/admin_posts/30736 It addresses some of my concerns about duplicate works appearing on AO3, although I'm not sure how much of this is Open Doors' policy and how much of this is coming from MuggletNet moderators who had the same concerns. In their announcement, they say that if they find a copy of works already on AO3, they will just add those to the collection instead of importing the old versions. If Open Doors does this automatically, then it may not be an issue at all.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean we should delete stories from AC before they are transferred to avoid duplicates. I think they should stay on AC in their original form. But if they all get automatically imported into AO3, then I would want the ability to delete (from AO3, not AC) the duplicates of the ones I've already posted on AO3 myself and put the versions that have been on AO3 longer in the collection instead. Everyone will have the ability to claim their work and have it added to their AO3 account, regardless of whether it's the same username as you have on AC. Once the works are connected to your account, they'll show up in your works, and you'll have control over them, just like the ones you've already posted yourself. And we can have more than one moderator of the collection, so it doesn't have to be just one person in control of making changes to it. I have Rose set as a co-moderator of the 1000 Ways collections, so I know that's possible.
I think an announcement on the main AC site is a good idea once we have the details ironed out, just so people know this is happening, but we don't want anyone deleting anything before the transfer.
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That is pretty much my understanding--that they will import everything, but do checks for duplicates. Unfortunately, I don't think that the reviews or anything transfer over (plus, although I deleted out hundreds of spam reviews at some points, I'm sure there are still a TON left over. I wish there was a good way to keep those, but...I don't think there are. At least not easily. For those who wanted to keep them, it MIGHT be possible to use the database to associate the comments with the story and post them as a "chapter" or something, but would have to research that a bit...
I will be keeping the domain and the archive as-is alive as long as I possibly can. I am getting more worried each time I have to upgrade the server that it'll be the upgrade that completely breaks viewing. I have backed up the database and all the stories, so even if the site does go down, OpenDoors already has the backup and can still import to their archive.
The actual move will be announce on AO3, as well as a few other locations that they oversee. I'll also put a note on AC's front page. I don't think we can pre-delete at this point since they already have that backup. It sounds like there are a few archives ahead of ours to get moved, but we're on the list--it will be a while though before it's done.
Julie, I think you'd make an awesome owner. I like that the archive stays open at least for a while--I think those stories that are unfinished on AC, but maybe finished elsewhere would still be able to be added to in the collection. Is the best email for you the one in your profile here? If not, please PM me with the email address you'd want to have as the contact. I'll be happy to help as much as possible for this, but know my availability just hasn't been good for a loooooong time now and I don't see it getting much better.
The next question they want the answer to for the collection: Do we want sub-categories such as one for each fandom. BSB is obviously the biggest one, but we do have some smaller ones that have some representation--would we want those just all under the AC Collection, or would we want subs like AC BSB, AC HP, AC NCIS, etc.? That may already happen with the import and they get assigned to fandoms, but I'm not sure of that. I should look at the other archive you mentioned to see what they're like.
Do we want the collection to be restricted viewing to only users that are logged in? It sounds like automatically for the first 30 days they do lock it down like that, but then after that they usually open up all the unclaimed fics, etc so they're visible to all unless we request it stay to logged in users only.
FYI, I've got a longtime friend who is going to help out as much as she can with importing (and is the one who submitted us to OpenDoors in the first place). She doesn't have a login here (yet?) but if you see the name Kimela during this process, that's who we're talking about.
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So, logged in automatically just fine on my computer so not sure what the issue was? Maybe dual login was the issue. :shrug: Thanks for troubleshootin g, Mare!
Real talk, yall -- you think you're busy and then you add a small human to your life, lol. Thanks for the grace.
I agree that the most important thing is to preserve history and I think this import is a wonderful way to do that after losing both FF.net and everything through Geocities. Ash, I think it's wonderful that your friend Kimela proposed a viable solution for keeping all of this alive post-tech issues and that you've worked so hard to keep everything going all this time despite tech marching on. End of life is an unfortunate, but real issue.
I also agree with what everyone has put forth regarding questions on duplicates, ownership, and so on. I think one (or several) of us assisting with the move will make everything as smooth as possible for all of us. If we're in the June/July time-frame, I have more foreseeable free time that I would be willing to donate too. Overall, Julie is a great choice for Team Lead, especially as she already threw her hat in the ring!
I have no strong opinions on the new questions, I think whatever just makes the most sense with navigating the collection and organizing the fandom categories. The post Julie included about MuggleNet FF seems similar in spirit to what it seems everyone here is expressing as their interests in the move.
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I'm glad you finally got on here, Dee.
Like I said earlier, I'm willing to help in whatever way I can as well, as long as you tell me exactly what I need to do like I was a kindergarten kid, because apparently, this is way over my head. lol
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Thanks, Ash! I just PMed you with my email.
I did some more exploring of the Open Doors site and the other archives they've already preserved, and each one of them has an identical announcement post like the example I linked for MuggleNet yesterday. So I think that was coming from Open Doors, not MuggleNet's moderators, and is representative of their policy for all archives, meaning they should check for duplicates of our stories, too. They seem very organized! I also read that it can take months to years to fully import big archives, so if there are others in front of us, this may not even happen this year. I was surprised at how few stories were in the MuggleNet collection because Harry Potter is a huge fandom, but it looks like they just started archiving it in December, so it's probably still in progress.
I'm glad they already have a backup of everything, just in case AC goes down before everything gets moved. For anyone else who wants to save their reviews, I backed up all mine a few years ago when AC was getting really glitchy, and we were concerned it was going to disappear. I did it by clicking through each page of reviews and saving the page as an HTML file. (On Chrome on a desktop, you go to the three dots menu -> Cast, save, and share -> Save page as.) It took awhile, but it'll be nice to have them if/when the site goes down for good. The overall quality and quantity of comments on AO3 are just not the same!
As far as sub-categories go, I don't think that would be necessary as long as the fandoms get tagged during the import (which I think they will). It's easy to filter by fandom on AO3. Here's an example of a collection from another preserved archive over 3000 stories from multiple fandoms: https://archiveofourown.org/collections/libraryofmoria If you click on Fandoms, it lists the various fandoms that are represented, and you can click on the one you want to browse. This one also has three sub-collections for various challenges they did, so you can see what that would look like.
I also read that the collection will be automatically restricted to registered viewers for the first 30 days (probably to give authors time to claim their work or request that it be deleted if they don't want it on AO3), but I'm fine with it being visible to everyone after that period.
Thanks for the info! Let me know if there's anything else you need from me at this stage or if there's anything I can do to help. I'm also happy to have co-moderators of the collection. I think once the transfer is done and the collection is set up, moderating will just be a matter of responding to user requests to add or delete their stories and that kind of thing. Depending on what kind of response we get from other AC writers, it may be a lot at first, but I doubt it will take much time after that first 30 days or so. I also think it'll be more straightforwar d than it may seem here once it's all set up. It sounds like Open Doors is doing the hard work of transferring and setting everything up for us.
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Glad you were able to get in, Dee! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and volunteering to help when you can!
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I'm back in. took a while but I just made a new account so I can post.
I think archiving to AO3 is great. I already had moved my sfuff there years ago. and I have my work on wattpad as well for a back up. I would be happy to be able to still read the stories if they were moved.
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Sorry you had such a hard time getting in, Tracy. What a hassle! Thanks for chiming in. It will be nice to be able to get and receive comments on AC stories again.
Selfishly, I love that someone else is going to be doing the work of importing Broken and BMS for me LOL. Those are the main two I still haven't moved to AO3 because of how many chapters they are and how much editing they need. I will probably still want to edit them there at some point, but that's a project for the future. Hopefully Open Doors has an easy way of importing all these stories without them looking like a hot mess with all the weird symbols we sometimes see on AC stories that were originally written in MS Word. Like this: https://absolutechaos.net/viewstory.php?sid=5354&chapter=1 🤦♀️
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I know most of mine showed up with all those symbols. For every single punctuation mark of any kind.
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Hi, it's been a while. I was directed to the tweet that links to this thread by a friend.
While I understand and sympathize with the desire to archive old works so they aren't lost to the Internet sands of time, I cannot support this auto opt-in policy. Personally, I do not want my works (under the same author name as my forum name here, Sakabelle) imported to AO3 on my behalf.
Further, I do not agree with doing this in bulk. There are many authors and stories on here that have long been on the archive, and to pick them up and move them elsewhere feels disrespectful to them. These authors should have a choice in the matter, they still own their words and still should have a say in what is done with them and where they are posted.
AC's own terms of service states "Disclaimers (i.e. covering legal butts): All fiction is copyright to the individual writers. Do not copy in whole or in part." So I'm not sure why that would not extend to the moderators of this site who have access to the database to pull the information in a raw format. If anything, moderators have more of an obligation to uphold this given they have access to the data in trust.
I am aware I'm coming of as combative and I'm also aware that other discussions and opinions that some of us disagree on probably do not make it easy to want to understand what I'm saying. I debated with myself posting this here at all, but given I was a part of this community for many years I would be remiss if I didn't say something.
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Visit https://opendoors.transformativeworks.org/en/faq/ for more information on the purpose of preserving at-risk archives and how to request that your works not be imported to AO3. Open Doors makes every effort to contact creators, credit them, and give them control over what happens to their work.
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I know most of mine showed up with all those symbols. For every single punctuation mark of any kind.
So annoying! I hope the Open Doors team has a solution for that because I'm sure AC isn't the only old archive with that problem.
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I must admit to being on the fence about the idea of forcing people to have their works moved to a site where they didn’t get to agree to the terms and conditions. Yes, you can ask for it to be removed after the fact, but if you don’t still use the same email address that you did in 2006 when you set up your account, or you don’t monitor A03, the chances of knowing are pretty slim. We’re also probably talking about work by people who have passed away and will not have the ability to claim their work.
Personally, I wouldn’t want my stuff moved. Anything I wanted to post in A03 I already did, anything else was my responsibility to back up because I’m the copyright holder. I’m happy for anything I didn’t save to head into the void of the internet and I’m sure I’m not alone in that.
I dunno 🤷♀️
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I did find something interesting that may be useful to include in any communications . There is a way to ensure your content is not migrated. If you send the email address that you used on AC, or any identifying info if you don’t have access to the email, to Open Doors they’ll block that address from being included in any migrations.
https://opendoors.transformativeworks.org/en/faq/what-if-i-dont-want-my-works-be-imported/
Something else they mention is that it’s up to the creator to remove duplicates. They don’t screen for them.
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Yep! Creators can request their content not be imported, and they can also request it be deleted if they don't find out about it until after the fact. Like Ash said, it may be awhile before they actually get to AC, so there will be time to advertise this and try to make people aware that it's happening so they can take action if they don't want their stories archived on AO3.
As far as duplicates go, this is what the FAQ page says:
What if I have already posted a copy of the works being imported on the AO3?
If you imported the work from the original archive using our import feature, then the work will not be imported again and your existing copy will be automatically associated with the new collection. If you posted the work manually or imported it from a different url, then you will need to decide what to do with the duplicate work. Keeping in mind that when possible, the imported archive’s web addresses will redirect to the imported copy of these works (to preserve rec lists and bookmarks), you can:
-Wait for the merge tool currently in development, which can combine the hit counts and reviews of both copies, while keeping only one work body (and preserving the redirect link, if applicable).
-Delete the imported copy (breaking the redirect link, if applicable), and add the pre-existing copy to the imported-archive’s collection.
-Delete the pre-existing copy on AO3.
-When applicable, request that Open Doors reset the redirect to point toward the pre-existing copy on AO3. To do so, please contact Open Doors with your AO3 account name, imported archive’s account name, and links to the works that you want the redirects to point to.
It sounds like they can detect duplicates if you posted them using the import feature, and they won't import those again. But if you just manually copy/pasted them (which is what I did with mine), then you will end up with duplicates and can choose one of the options they lay out above to handle that. Hopefully this clears up some of the questions we had about duplicates. The merge tool they mention that's in development sounds cool! It would be nice if that were done by the time they get to AC.
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Yes, I read the same thing on duplicates. I suspect most folks who cross posted won’t have done so via open door, but rather posted to A03 at the time they posted it elsewhere.
I still have reservations about forcing people to opt out, rather than having people who want to be included opt in. I fully disagree with Open Door’s stance that this is the same as moving a site to a new host. It’s not at all. It’s the duplication of copyrighted content from one database, onto another entirely new database, with a different set of terms.
After all we did to combat copyright infringement in the past, to then openly infringe on the copyright of our own member base feels disrespectful. Especially when you consider that OTW has a $500,000USD annual budget, 40.5% of which is spent on fundraising and administration (operational costs for A03 are separate). They use the influx of content from absorbing other platforms to increase the number of people they can ask for money from. Now if you’ve agreed to their terms of service and have posted content then great, you know that you’re contributing to a system built to generate funds from its membership. But I just feel icky about forcing people who might not be around anymore to be participants simply because their email might have changed.
Clearly others don’t though, so it doesn’t matter what I think! I’ll just be sure to go delete my content in advance.
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Thanks both for the clarification. While I still do not agree with this approach, I appreciate the information on how to block this from happening for my own works.
I've gone ahead and removed my fics from AC and will be contacting OTW as a precaution as well.
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I think this opt-in versus opt-out is a valid point worth discussing, but I'm also wondering if these archive transfer terms are pretty boilerplate and not customized based on the original archive's wishes. Would it be very difficult for us to attempt an internal opt-in prior to whatever process is completed by Open Doors?
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Hi everyone! And long time seeing a lot of faces! :)
I'm still trying to understand the issue but, as for my works, I wouldn't mind if they get transferred to AO3, since I have been using it for years. I do think and believe that it would be a real shame if this fandom would lose part of its history, given the amount of stories that are being archivied here. But, at the same time, I do agree that it isn't fair for the authors not having a say about having their works transferred to another archive without their consents.
Cinzia
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I think this opt-in versus opt-out is a valid point worth discussing, but I'm also wondering if these archive transfer terms are pretty boilerplate and not customized based on the original archive's wishes. Would it be very difficult for us to attempt an internal opt-in prior to whatever process is completed by Open Doors?
My major concern with this is that the works will end up on AO3 and that website has a fairly large and detailed TOS that any imported works would then be subject to. The original authors do not get the chance to agree to them. For example:
Jurisdiction: The AO3 TOS, the relationship between you and the OTW, and all disputes arising out of or related to them shall be governed by the laws of the United States and specifically the State of New York, without regard to any conflict-of-law provisions. You and the OTW agree to submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located within New York County (Manhattan), New York, and to waive any objection to the laying of venue there.
This could be extremely concerning to someone who is not a resident of the USA. Which we likely do have quite a few non-Americans on AC.
I have works on AO3 but it’s just important to know that their TOS are quite strict and to auto move all of these works to an archive with much stricter TOS with an auto opt-in policy seems icky.
We also previously had done so much work to stop plagiarism and having our stories adjusted and posted without our consent, so doing this now, when so many of the authors are gone and likely not aware this is happening seems a tad hypocritical.
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It is great to see people pop back up here! I wish we'd see more, but the fact that there's still only a few of us who have posted in this thread in the two months it's been here exemplifies the problem of using an opt-in system instead of an opt-out one, if that's even an option. I completely understand the concern about transferring people's work to another website without their explicit permission. I prefer to have a say in where and how my work is posted, too, and would opt out if I didn't want it on AO3. But, no matter how much we try to reach out and publicize this move, it's unrealistic to expect that we will hear back from everyone or even the majority of authors on AC. So does that mean we should only preserve a small fraction of the archive? Or not try to preserve it at all? Some of you who have moved on from the fandom may be fine with letting two decades worth of content disappear, but what about those of us who are still active in it? Most people from AC probably fall somewhere in between - they may not be actively reading or writing fanfic anymore, but they likely still have fond memories of it and wouldn't want to see their favorite stories disappear forever. In an ideal world, we all would have backed up our own work and favorite fics that we wanted the ability to reread in the future, just as we would have kept our old email addresses or set them to forward to our new ones so that we could be contacted about stuff like this. But, again, it's not realistic to expect that everyone has taken those steps.
The whole point of this project is to preserve a piece of fandom history, which won't happen if we wait to get permission from everyone. I fully support the right of authors to opt-out or request that their work be deleted from the collection if they find out about it after the fact and don't want it there. But if they've made themselves unreachable, that's on them. And if they've passed away, then they're beyond caring about what happens to their fanfics, unfortunately - but allowing their creative works to live on keeps their memory alive.
As to Julilly's point about forcing people to be participants in OTW's operations, no one is being forced to create an AO3 account. Unclaimed works will be credited to the author's AC username but posted under the generic AC archivist account that Open Doors will create for us. Here is an example of what that looks like for FictionAlley, another Harry Potter archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/fictionalley_archivist/pseuds/fictionalley_archivist As you can see, each work is attributed to its original author's username from FictionAlley, but the usernames aren't linked to an AO3 account because the author never created one or claimed their work. Those authors aren't being asked for donations or forced to follow terms of service that they didn't agree to.
As to the concern about plagiarism, this is completely different from what Tanja was doing when this forum first became active. She was copying other people's stories and trying to pass them off as her own. The point of this project is to preserve an archive while giving full credit to the original authors and allowing them to have the same control over their work that they have here.
The way I see it, people who care about what happens to their work will take the steps needed to stay in control of it, whether that means claiming it on AO3, requesting that it be removed, or opting out of the move altogether. Whether you're still active in the fandom or not, you all stayed connected enough to see this information and cared enough to come here and share your thoughts. People who don't care enough to do that or, at the very minimum, check their email or update their email address if it's changed, probably aren't going to care what happens to fanfics they wrote many years ago. If they discover this collection in the future and do care, they can still claim it or request that it be deleted. But if they don't, at least readers who do care about it can continue to enjoy it and engage with it more than they can on AC as it currently exists.
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I’m really not looking to be convinced, I have read all of the same material you have, so don’t feel like you need to try and fill in any blanks. It’s because I read through everything that I have concerns.
For instance, the comment to me about how the author isn’t contributing to A03’s fundraising because they don’t have to make an account doesn’t really make sense to me. What’s the motivation behind wanting to move everyone’s work to a new database? To preserve history, right? So that people can continue to read it? So if you want to read it, you have to go to the website to view it, and there is regularly a large banner at the top of the page (logged in or not) asking for money, stating that the archive relies on your donations to continue, and all the power to them. But content is what brings people to A03 and they need more content to get more viewers, to get more money. Which is something a person is aware of when agreeing to their terms of service. So someone’s copyrighted work is being moved to a site they didn’t agree to participate in, to allow them to increase their content and get more donations.
For me, the concern is not about plagiarism but copyright infringement. When you ask should we not try to preserve the whole archive you’re talking about someone else’s copyrighted material that you want to take and put somewhere else without the permission of the copyright holder. That’s why I have reservations about it all. We’re still talking about removing copyrighted work from one database and moving it to a new database, with terms the copyright holder didn’t agree to.
At the end of the day it doesn’t belong to me, or you, or all of us collectively. It’s the author’s, and I don’t think it’s a bad thing to care about their ability to choose what happens to their work before it’s already happened. That is all from me!
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I'm not trying to convince you specifically, just sharing my reasons for supporting this project in spite of the questions and concerns raised, so people who are just joining the conversation can see both sides and add their thoughts.
I see your point about more content bringing more visitors and, thus, more potential donors to the website. But, to be fair, the larger the website, the more servers and space they need to host it all. All that costs money. Since they can't charge us to use their site and don't allow ads like a lot of other free sites do, I personally don't mind them asking for donations periodically.
While copyright laws are murky when it comes to fanfiction, the concern about copyright infringement is valid. But I do think there is a difference between one of us posting another author's work somewhere else without their permission (which AO3 does not allow) and Chaos, as the owner of a dying fanfic archive, giving permission for the archive to be moved to a more functional platform in order to keep it up and running. He's taken on the responsibility of maintaining this archive, but, because the eFiction script is outdated and no longer being supported, that has become more and more challenging. He made it clear a few years ago, after frequent outages lasting several days, that it's only a matter of time before a server update or something else kills this site. Thankfully, it's lasted longer than a lot of us thought it would, but it's not going to last forever and is barely functional as is. Transferring it somewhere that will allow authors to actually update their stories and interact with their readers again makes sense. While it's true that AO3 has lengthier, more detailed terms of service than AC, its platform is similar, and its purpose is the same.
That being said, I completely agree with you that we should care about an author's ability to choose what happens to their work before it's already happened. I don't think I would support this move if it meant giving up control of our work. Creator control is important. That's why Chaos came here to ask for our blessing two months ago before moving forward with this, why he's asking our opinions on the next decisions that need to be made, and why we, along with Open Doors, will do our best to spread the word about this once we have a better idea of when the import might actually begin, so authors are made aware of their options before that time.
But, in the case of authors who may miss out on the notifications, I feel this is one of those times when it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. If they find their work on AO3 after the fact and are upset about it, that's an easy fix. It's harder to get back the work that disappears when a site goes down for good. I can almost guarantee there will be others who are grateful that their work was saved when that inevitably happens to AC, and, for me, that outweighs the risk of pissing people off. We'll have to agree to disagree on that part. Either way, I respect your opinion.
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all of my works are already on AO3. but I do understand the concerns people have. I wouldn't want my writing edited without my consent either.