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[colorguard_diva]

I have two "rules" I tend to follow when I do include romance in my stories.

The first is the Doug and Carol rule.  Doug and Carol are my favorite couple from ER, my favorite show, and even though they were clearly meant to be, they didn't get together until Season 4.  When they finally did, it made their relationship that much better, because it had taken so much time and so much drama for it to happen.  The lesson I took away from that was to draw it out (without making it too boring or infuriating), to make it more gratifying in the end.

The other is the Jack and Rose rule.  I remember taking a trivia quiz on Titanic in a magazine, shortly after it came out, and one of the questions was, "How many times do Jack and Rose say 'I love you' to each other?"  I think the choices were 0, 1, or 2; I just know I picked 2, obviously, because they were so in love, it had to be the maximum number of times, right?  I was surprised to find the answer was only 1; Rose says it once, when they're in the water and she's saying her goodbyes.  Jack never says it at all.  That fact makes the one time it does get said that much more meaningful.  The lesson I took away from that was to use the L-word sparingly, to make it count more when it does finally get used.

It's tempting to rush it, but more satisfying if you don't.

I think those are two great rules for writing.

[Mellz Bellz]

The other is the Jack and Rose rule.  I remember taking a trivia quiz on Titanic in a magazine, shortly after it came out, and one of the questions was, "How many times do Jack and Rose say 'I love you' to each other?"  I think the choices were 0, 1, or 2; I just know I picked 2, obviously, because they were so in love, it had to be the maximum number of times, right?  I was surprised to find the answer was only 1; Rose says it once, when they're in the water and she's saying her goodbyes.  Jack never says it at all.  That fact makes the one time it does get said that much more meaningful.  The lesson I took away from that was to use the L-word sparingly, to make it count more when it does finally get used.

It's tempting to rush it, but more satisfying if you don't.

Great point Julie! I think I must've read the same article because somewhere in my collection of useless trivia in my head I have never forgotten that Jack never ONCE told her he loved her yet you totally believed it. Strangely enough I actually totally bought the fact that they fell so deeply in love in a matter of days. I have no idea how those writers pulled that off, but I wish I knew their secret. Sometimes I think in movies it's easier to pull off because you physically have the characters in front of you and can rely on the chemistry between two actors versus in writing you have to rely on a reader's imagination.

[RokofAges75]

I think those are two great rules for writing.

Thanks!  I try to learn from the best, especially with genres I'm not as comfortable writing.  With romance, it helped me move past my early teenybopper stories LOL.

[RokofAges75]

Great point Julie! I think I must've read the same article because somewhere in my collection of useless trivia in my head I have never forgotten that Jack never ONCE told her he loved her yet you totally believed it. Strangely enough I actually totally bought the fact that they fell so deeply in love in a matter of days. I have no idea how those writers pulled that off, but I wish I knew their secret. Sometimes I think in movies it's easier to pull off because you physically have the characters in front of you and can rely on the chemistry between two actors versus in writing you have to rely on a reader's imagination.

Yeah, they are the exception to that rule.  I bought that they were in love too, and he didn't have to tell her for her to know.  I'm sure there are plenty of Titanic fanfics that explore this, but it's interesting to wonder how their relationship would have turned out if he hadn't died and they really had run off together in New York.  Would they have lasted with the stress of being so poor and Rose not being used to it?  Would the fact that they'd only known each other a few days lead to cracks in the relationship later on?  Their relationship started off almost like a summer fling, something that was meant to be temporary and fun, but obviously it progressed to more than that.  But how could you not fall in love with Jack Dawson?  I was in love with him after about an hour, and I wasn't even a Leo fan the first time I saw that movie (I sure was from that point on, though! LOL).

[Mellz Bellz]

Yeah, they are the exception to that rule.  I bought that they were in love too, and he didn't have to tell her for her to know.  I'm sure there are plenty of Titanic fanfics that explore this, but it's interesting to wonder how their relationship would have turned out if he hadn't died and they really had run off together in New York.  Would they have lasted with the stress of being so poor and Rose not being used to it?  Would the fact that they'd only known each other a few days lead to cracks in the relationship later on?  Their relationship started off almost like a summer fling, something that was meant to be temporary and fun, but obviously it progressed to more than that.  But how could you not fall in love with Jack Dawson?  I was in love with him after about an hour, and I wasn't even a Leo fan the first time I saw that movie (I sure was from that point on, though! LOL).

Very true! In my more recent rewatches of that movie I've wondered the same thing. Then of course there is also something so tragically romantic about being put into a life/death situation. I know that sounds sick, but I think that being faced with the chance you may die definitely would cause you to have strong feelings for someone that you might not ordinarily feel that way about. Hmmm... That would be an interesting idea to follow for as story...

[RokofAges75]

That's true too; I think the circumstances definitely made their feelings even stronger, but Rose was planning to get off with him even before it hit the iceberg.  I think she just felt so trapped by her life that it was easy to fall for him; he was her way out.  But I do think there was real love there, on both sides of it.  For Jack, it was lust first, but once he saw her real personality, that she wasn't just some snotty pampered princess, he fell in love with her too.  I think there was a lot more character development there than in, say, Romeo & Juliet, where it really is just kind of based on lust and raging teenage hormones LOL.

[RokofAges75]

I'm reviving this thread because I just want to say, after seeing a conversation on Twitter last night about romance, that the point of this thread was not to make anyone feel guilty, insecure, or attacked about liking romance, whether that means reading it, writing it, or both.

I'm pretty sure Mare started it because of the way almost everyone answered a question in her fanfic survey in another thread a few days before, when she asked what genre we felt was overrated.  Almost everyone said romance, and a romance writer asked why, and so here is the result, a place to discuss the genre and its misconceptions .

I don't think anyone here has said they hate romance, and no one has said people shouldn't be writing it.  Personally, I do wish there was more variety in genres being posted on AC, and I know I'm not alone in that opinion, but that is just based on my own personal preference.  I don't hate romance; I just like drama and suspense better.  I would never try to tell someone else what to write or what not to write, and I don't think anyone else here was doing that, either.  Write what you want!  It shows if you don't.  If you're a romance writer, be proud of it!  Be glad!  You're writing in a genre a lot of people love!

I have another thought, but I'm gonna save it for a separate post so this one doesn't get so long no one will read it.

[RokofAges75]

I think of the genre thing like music.

Romance is like mainstream, Top 40 pop music.  Some people will grumble and say they hate Top 40, but obviously, some people must love it, or it wouldn't be Top 40!  It wouldn't be on the radio!  Some people may dislike most of it, but will admit to liking a few select songs (stories).

Then you have drama, which is more like rock music.  A little darker, a little edgier than pop, but still popular, still on the radio, just a different station.  Sometimes you get a crossover, a rock song on the pop station, just like some dramas have subplots of romance, or vice versa.

Suspense is maybe like rap/hip-hop.  It's not for everyone, but it does have its fans and a place on the radio and in the mainstream.  Sometimes it, too, crosses over with rock (drama) or pop (romance).

Slash could be like country music, the most divisive genre.  Like country, you either love it or you hate it.  Some people live by slash, where that's all they read/write, and some people wouldn't go near it.  Sometimes you get a country song or artist that goes mainstream pop, just like some slash stories are so well-written that they convert people who normally wouldn't read slash.

And then you have sci-fi and fantasy, which are like the underground, indy music, not in the mainstream.  There's a lot of creativity and originality going on in these genres, yet for whatever reason, they're not as popular.  Dedicated fans of these might look down on the mainstream, yet wish more people liked their genres.

You shouldn't let anyone else's opinions dictate what kind of music you like or make you feel bad for listening to a certain type, and the same is true for fanfic.  Be yourself, read/write what you like, and if you have a different opinion, stand up for yourself and express it!  That's the whole point of a discussion board!  That's why this thread is called "the romantic DEBATE" - I think Mare was hoping we'd have ALL sides in here sharing their viewpoints on the topic.

[colorguard_diva]

In my opinion people may feel under attack or get their feelings hurt is because they feel that the romance genre is the one no one takes seriously. Maybe if they are constantly hearing most romance stories are full of fluff and one dimensional Mary Sue characters, one might be led to feel they aren't as good of a writer then say those who write suspense or comedy. Just like the other genres their are cliches that all writer do whether it be suspense, romance, or children's lit. With the constant complaint of too much romance stories on AC it may feel like an attack.

Being that romance has a lot of stories, as I writer I definitely feel the need to come up with something new and original. That can take a lot of work. Romance has a lot of interpersonal connections between characters. You have to show that in dialogue and actions like any other genre. Genres may be different, but they use the same writing skills to write them.

In my opinion, not anyone elses because I only speak for me...lately all I see is negativity towards everything and everyone. You can't voice a single opinion without people calling you a bitch. Unless you agree with a person, your opinion is crap. You may not even be talking to a person and they will attack you because you said something. This is still America, everyone has the right to an opinion. Let's be the adults we are, where we respect each other and our opinions.  Agree to disagree.

We should be applauding each other for our writing. For some people it's hard for them to even post a story. Take time and read a story in a different genre you may just be surprised.

[colorguard_diva]

Another thing I notice that within other genres is that they have romance intertwined within the main genre. Many dramas have a secondary love story. A lot of romances have, suspense, drama, and comedy within it. I think most of the stories on AC do a fine job of incorporating a little bit of more than one genre.

[RokofAges75]

In my opinion people may feel under attack or get their feelings hurt is because they feel that the romance genre is the one no one takes seriously. Maybe if they are constantly hearing most romance stories are full of fluff and one dimensional Mary Sue characters, one might be led to feel they aren't as good of a writer then say those who write suspense or comedy. Just like the other genres their are cliches that all writer do whether it be suspense, romance, or children's lit. With the constant complaint of too much romance stories on AC it may feel like an attack.

I don't think it's the romance people are complaining about, so much as it is the lack of variety in genres.  I have a feeling if there was nothing but drama on the Most Recent, people would complain about that too.  ("Why is everything all gloom and doom?  We need more comedies!")  If AC was suddenly dominated by AUs, people would complain about there not being enough canon BSB fics.  One of the reasons sites like AC do so well is that there are so many stories, in so many genres, that there should be something for everyone, so sometimes it's disappointing to not see that variety represented in what's actually being updated.  But romance has always been the most popular genre of BSB fic, and clearly, it's still going strong.  Not everyone may love it, but seems like most people do, or it wouldn't be doing so well.

I agree about the cliches, and it's too bad, because like you said, there are certainly romances that are above those cliches and should be taken seriously.  It's the poorly-written teeny stuff that has given romance a bad name.  I do think that creates an extra challenge for romance writers, to avoid those cliches and prove the haters wrong.

Being that romance has a lot of stories, as I writer I definitely feel the need to come up with something new and original. That can take a lot of work. Romance has a lot of interpersonal connections between characters. You have to show that in dialogue and actions like any other genre. Genres may be different, but they use the same writing skills to write them.

I think romance is tough to write!  Good romance, anyway.  Like you said, there has to be something fresh about it so that it stands out among all the others, and because it's based on those interpersonal connections, the characters need to be strong, or they fall flat and the story loses its credibility.  In some other genres, the writers can rely more on action and events to drive the story, but that doesn't really work for romance if the characters don't hold up. 

In my opinion, not anyone elses because I only speak for me...lately all I see is negativity towards everything and everyone. You can't voice a single opinion without people calling you a bitch. Unless you agree with a person, your opinion is crap. You may not even be talking to a person and they will attack you because you said something. This is still America, everyone has the right to an opinion. Let's be the adults we are, where we respect each other and our opinions.  Agree to disagree.

I hope this opinion is coming from Twitter and not here on AC.  I don't think these debate threads on AC are meant to be negative at all; they're just intended to get us talking.  It was pretty dead on this board before the romance conversation started, and I've enjoyed the fanfic discussion that resulted from it.  I think we do a pretty good job on this board of expressing different opinions without attacking each other or resorting to name-calling.  The forum as a whole is pretty harmonious compared to most other BSB forums I've been to.  We may not all agree on all points (and it would be pretty boring around here if we did), but we all like fanfiction, and almost all of us like the Backstreet Boys, so we have enough in common to get along and respect each other's opinions even when they differ from our own.

We should be applauding each other for our writing. For some people it's hard for them to even post a story. Take time and read a story in a different genre you may just be surprised.

Agreed, and great idea!  I wonder if it could be made into some kind of challenge, a reading challenge instead of a writing one?

[mare]

Yup, I started this thread because of the way the answers from my survey turned out like I have already said a bunch of times. I never did it to make people feel attacked or belittled.

I'm glad I missed out on whatever drama happened on twitter. I tend to not follow many people so, not sure exactly what went down but, I do hope that people feel like they can post whatever opinion they want on here and not feel attacked. Although feeling attacked usually has less to do with what's actually said and more to do with your own personality and how you handle situations. Some people tend to think anything anyone says is about them when most times it's a general statement about something. I think as writers sometimes we all need thicker skins and just enjoy writing what we write and not care so much about what everyone else thinks. Weird that I came up with that other thread this morning. I must have a psychic thing happening. LOL

I also think we have all tried to read other genres, I know I have tried to read several romances, sci-fi's even slash. Have I thought some of the writing was high calibur? Absolutely! but sometimes it just is something that doesn't hold my attention.

As far as Romance goes, since that's the hot topic, I Don't think it's all fluff, or stereotypical, but for me personally, it's boring to read about a relationship. If it's a small subplot within a bigger context, it's one thing but if it's mainly focused on the relationship, it just isn't my thing. I know i'm in the minority and I also know that it's extremely hard to write about a complex relationship and keep it going through an entire story. I have said many many times, I give romance writers credit for being able to write realistically, especially the love scenes because I just can't lol

I do think it's important to support new writers and make them feel comfortable and I think AC is a great place for that to happen.

So, yeah...lol

I do like the idea of a reading challenge. Maybe we can do that next month?

[RokofAges75]

I also think we have all tried to read other genres, I know I have tried to read several romances, sci-fi's even slash. Have I thought some of the writing was high calibur? Absolutely! but sometimes it just is something that doesn't hold my attention.

As far as Romance goes, since that's the hot topic, I Don't think it's all fluff, or stereotypical, but for me personally, it's boring to read about a relationship. If it's a small subplot within a bigger context, it's one thing but if it's mainly focused on the relationship, it just isn't my thing. I know i'm in the minority and I also know that it's extremely hard to write about a complex relationship and keep it going through an entire story. I have said many many times, I give romance writers credit for being able to write realistically, especially the love scenes because I just can't lol

This is pretty much how I feel too.  While there are a few pure romances (where the main focus of the storyline was on the couple) that I've read and enjoyed, I generally need some outside plot to keep my attention.  I prefer event-driven stories with good characters to character-driven stories.  I get bored easily without life or death situations, whether it's an illness or a disaster or someone trying to kill the main characters.  If the author can work some romance into that, awesome!  If not, that's okay too.  But in most cases, romance without that excitement doesn't hold my interest.  That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with pure romance or romantic comedies; they're just not MY favorite thing to read.  But again, judging by the amount of romance on AC and the sheer popularity of it in terms of reviews and favorites, I'm right there in the minority with Mare LOL.

[RokofAges75]

I also just wanna point out, I think people who love romance may not understand how frustrating it can be for people who love reading fanfic, but don't like romance, to find new stories to read.  I think that's where this complaining comes from.  It's frustration.

Speaking from experience, I've clicked on many of the romances that are popular and highly-recommended or that I see on the Most Recent page all the time because they're updated so frequently.  I would love nothing more than to start reading one of them and get sucked right in and have a new story to follow that actually gets updated a lot.  Unfortunately, it doesn't happen all that often because, regardless of the quality of writing, the plot just isn't for me, and I don't get sucked in.

I remember what a breath of fresh air Pengi's "Something Beautiful" was for me last summer because that story is totally MY type of story, drama with a romantic subplot and plenty of comic relief.  With the exception of Rose's "Remember Me This Way" (which doesn't have the romantic subplot, but does have plenty of drama and comic relief), it had been a long time since I'd read a new story like that.  It sucked me right in without me having to force myself to keep reading it, and I hadn't had that experience in awhile.  It reminded me of why I love reading fanfic. 

I wish there were more new stories being written that could give me that experience, so if you ever see me complaining, that's where it's coming from.  It's not an attack on romance or any other genre; it's not an attack on certain writers; it's just general frustration that there aren't as many of the kind of stories that I truly love being written.

[mare]

That sums it up for me exactly! I think we complain generally about the limited choices, not so much who is writing the stories. I'm excited there is suddenly a multitude of sci fi stories popping up on AC and i'm not even a fan of sci fi lol it's just nice to see some more variety out there.