Fic Talk > General Discussion
The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
nicksgal:
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 26, 2021, 10:07:43 PM ---Yeah, absolutely. The tour is not really important, but because it happened and I'm following a real life timeline, I had to include it. I'm trying to focus on the important scenes and cut out fluff that doesn't have anything to do with the plot, but I feel like I'm skipping ahead a lot. I cannot imagine writing an entire concert - OMG, that would kill me. It's just never the same trying to describe something with words that is meant to be seen and heard.
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I think it would be an equal disservice to MBK if you just wrote song lyrics across three pages and skipped ahead to "after the tour..." lol. I'm trying to think of how to describe it either and I just don't think it works in a narrative. Even though it feels like you're skipping ahead, you're definitely right, a novel is not the correct medium to describe a complete concert, much like (as we've discussed), cinematic shorthand does not work in a novel.
I also hate when it feels like you have to include something to be accurate, no matter how much it feels unimportant. Because then "They were on tour" feels equally lazy and unnecessary unless it's to include that one of them fell off their LTL surfboards into the crowd or something. That feels like a reason to include a concert scene. Breaking MTV News: That fall likely killed the unlucky Backstreet Boy and the world mourned via candlelight vigil.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 26, 2021, 10:07:43 PM ---I can see how the chapters of them walking in the desert would get boring to write. There's only so many ways to describe the desert, and if you run out of conversation for them to have, then what? It's definitely more fun to write parts of the story with more action and events happening.
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Then what? Well... unfortunately then they still have to walk across the desert until they get where they're going, lol. :( I've struggled this week with the scene I thought came next, to the point of writing myself a note at the bottom of it on Thursday afternoon that said "[stuff?]" before deciding to skip to the next scene. I reread over both today and realized that there were a couple things worth pulling from it for elsewhere, but it probably felt like it dragged because it felt both like an unnecessary transition and really repetitive. I decided to cut it (and save it for now until I decide on the right places for the things I want to keep); now the chapter feels a little punchier. Thank goodness! Because if I was getting bored and unfocused, I can only imagine how anyone reading it would feel.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 26, 2021, 10:07:43 PM ---I think some transition scenes are necessary, especially when you're skipping a significant chunk of time. I just skipped about a month from the end of the last chapter to the beginning of the next one, so my first paragraph addressed that and oriented readers to where in time we are now.
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I think that's what I dislike about transition parts the most. They feel necessary for orientation purposes, but we obviously chose to skip that part of the story for a reason, so then they feel unnecessary. That makes them a necessary evil then, I suppose. Although, I'd believe it if Hot Mess Nick woke up hungover one morning and thought "October? F-- what have I been doing the past month?" haha.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 26, 2021, 10:07:43 PM ---I like my transition/summary parts best when I can add in a line of dialogue or two to help bridge the gap between telling and showing, so it's not just all telling. And if I'm going to mainly tell, I at least try to make the transitions seamless, so that one paragraph flows naturally into the next until I get into the next actual scene.
Another strategy would be to start in the middle of a scene and weave in the parts you would have summarized as the transition before said scene. I feel like this works better in third person POV than first. I'm writing this story in first person, which is meant to sound like the main character is telling the story - and most people don't start in the middle of the action when they tell a story. They give background information to set the scene first. Third person gives you more flexibility with writing style.
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I like using dialogue too for the transitions as tiny cut scenes. Like "this happened, here's some of it, but on a whole it's not entirely necessary."
Although, I feel like my best transitions across skipped time have been when I could just sum it up as "After blah blah blah, and now we're back in the moment." It just feels quick and painless that way. And there's definitely some times where part of me feels like an important part got skipped, but then I try to weave it in later as a "flashback" when it feels like another character needs to know about it. I guess I'm lucky in that most of my time skips are "and they were walking from place to place and this is unnecessary to your understanding of the story other than knowing they walked" as opposed to "this is real time BSB (or at least accurate to its time BSB) and important stuff does happen during the tour and the concerts, but as a whole the blow-by-blow of these actual events is not that important to your understanding of the story. That makes right now frustrating because they walk, but important things happen along the way that just wouldn't work with a flashback later since they're part of the climax of the story.
I agree, starting in the middle of a scene is bizarre in first person because I know if I'm telling someone a story, I always start at "Here's background information that may be important or may be extraneous. You decide, I'm telling you anyway!" You're right that it works better in third person, probably because as the narrator, you get to decide that the transition was unnecessary and only focus on the important bits. That's really the power of the removed narrator: pin-pointing what needs to be seen and what readers can fill in the gaps for. I think you can do this in first person, it just feels less natural if done exactly the same way and takes a little more nuance. There's definitely a scale of what works and what doesn't depending on how close the narration is to one character. Not transitions, but head hopping comes to mind as another one. More acceptable with an omniscient narrator, problematic at best in third limited, makes you question the mind reading ability of your protagonist in first, lol.
RokofAges75:
--- Quote from: nicksgal on May 29, 2021, 04:02:04 PM ---I think that's the way I feel now, since, like I said before, I definitely had a period where I would start posting any old thing that came to mind. But after so much time away, that's probably why the couple times I thought "Maybe I'll try out Gobosei and PNecklace," I ended up giving up since it never felt like it got far enough to be something. I'm glad something finally stuck though. Not really sure what the difference was!
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Yep, I have been there too. If only we were one-shot writers; then it wouldn't matter if we posted whatever we wrote on a whim.
I wonder what the difference was that finally got you to stick with PNecklace this time around. Do you think it was the pandemic and having more time at home to write? Or did the time off make it seem fresh and fun again? Or did you just hit the right part in the story? Or maybe it was a combination of all of the above. I wish there was some magic formula that I could apply to Guilty Roads, which is my equivalent of Gobosei.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on May 29, 2021, 04:02:04 PM ---Same. I'm having a two coffee day today to try and get myself into the writing groove (it seems to be working, lol). I used to drink sooooo much soda as a kid, like a regular coke a day so much soda. Then I thought about it and was like, this is a terrible habit, switched to caffeine-free coke, then decided it wasn't worth it for all the sugar and none of the happy caffeine, lol. I rarely drink soda anymore, like once in a blue moon, but I'm definitely team bubbly water. Then college hit and I was like "ooh, caffeine!" again and now I'm a coffee-addict, lol! A friend's sister does one of those wellness MLM brands (but on the scale of shady MLMs, it's on the better end, since you just order everything from the representative via "catalog" or their website, then it gets delivered to you later and she doesn't have to pre-buy her stock for samples or orders... off topic). Anyway, she was talking about their health cleanse program and mentioned how terrible coffee is for you and said something to the effect of "Whatever it is you like about coffee, I can help you find a more natural alternative to satisfy that craving." And I was like... everything at once. You can pry my terrible for me coffee out of my cold, dead hands, lol.
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I don't think coffee's so bad. Even most diets allow you to drink black coffee and tea. Of course, I only drink beige coffee with a ton of creamer in it, so never mind that LOL. Coffee itself is more natural than the various cleanses and shakes offered by those wellness MLMs.
I have tried switching from diet soda to bubbly water, and it's just not the same. I have yet to find a bubbly water that has enough flavor without tasting like flat soda. What's your favorite brand and flavor? And do they make a bubbly water with caffeine? LOL
--- Quote from: nicksgal on May 29, 2021, 04:02:04 PM ---They really don't. They were saying the same thing to me and internally I was thinking about how much I was looking forward to not seeing their faces for a hot moment in my new role. Come to find out that the other teacher coming in for our summer camp can't come until Wednesday next week... so guess who gets to see them again on Tuesday! At least there's no tutoring involved in this one, haha.
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LOL Oh no! Well, at least you get a three-day weekend first.
I had two girls in tears yesterday! So dramatic LOL. It's nice to feel loved though.
nicksgal:
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 26, 2021, 10:23:09 PM ---So I made it through the transition part I was on when I posted earlier and got to the start of my Nick and AJ conversation, but instead of getting into that scene, I decided to spend an hour backdating all 90 chapters of Curtain Call to their original post date in 2010-2011 so it wouldn't say it was finished in 2020 on AO3 anymore. Is that OCD or ADHD? LOL. Oh well... that had been bugging me since last summer, so I'm glad I finally fixed it. And it didn't take nearly as long as I thought it would.
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Hopefully the Nick and AJ scene went well once you got back into it! Glad you were able to finish the transition scene! I keep meaning to do that with PBox and haven't because I don't remember exact dates except for a few of the chapters, lol. I think it's "I want to focus on my writing, but need a break after sloughing through this transition scene." I do stuff like that too; lately it's been editing my end of book outline. I'm impressed it only took you an hour. That's like a minute and a half per chapter. Probably easier if you do have a running record of exact dates.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 26, 2021, 10:23:09 PM ---I need to figure out a plan for backdating before I start posting another novel. I like to backdate so my stories show up in the right order, but I also want them to show up among the recently updated stories when I'm actually posting them so they get seen. So I think what I'll do with the next one is not backdate the chapter I'm posting, but backdate the previously posted chapter each time I update so that at the end, I can just backdate the last chapter after a while. That will save me from having to do 90 chapters in a row. Thankfully, none of my stories since CC have been quite that long... and I'm still undecided about posting Broken and BMS on AO3 because of how long they are.
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That was going to be my suggestion since you'd post daily chapters until it was finished. That or backdate 7 chapters each week or something. It probably ends up being about the same in the end.
That would be a whole year for both if you posted them one after the other, yeah? That does seem like a long time when they're available on your site and here just fine. Maybe there's a space for an Author's Note at the end of Curtain Call that's something to the effect of "If you enjoy my writing and Nick cancer stories, here's another one I'm known for [link for Broken]. It also has a sequel [link for BMS]." But, then again... spoilers.
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 26, 2021, 10:23:09 PM ---Edited to add: As I was looking back through my updates archive to see when I actually started posting Curtain Call, I realized I wrote the first 16 chapters of that story in July. So when I said I could never write 14 chapters in a month, that was a lie. Apparently I can if it's summer and I'm writing a Nick cancer story LOL.
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You're right, I see what happens when you explicitly say you never do something, lol. Meanwhile, I have never underestimated your ability to write a lot quickly for a Nick cancer story. Especially in the summer, lol. Were you still updating as soon as you finished writing when you were writing Curtain Call or had you started the hoard by then?
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 28, 2021, 06:56:44 PM ---I officially made it to summer vacation! It's cold and rainy here; I came home from celebrating and turned my furnace back on LOL.
Happy Friday to everyone! It's been quiet here the last couple days. Hope everyone is doing well. Update us when you can!
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YAY!!!! We made it! It's supposed to rain a lot this weekend here, but so far just cloudy. I've been running the slippery slope of messing with the thermostat since the hubs is on work trip. I realized that I made a mistake when woke up sweating on Wednesday because I turned off the AC for an entire day, lol.
Happiest of three day weekends! I got tired on Wednesday, as is often the case post-update, and went to bed after doing some dishes. I've apparently been more tired than I thought this past week because I took a two hour nap Thursday afternoon/evening after writing "[stuff?]" on my dragging scene, then couldn't find the motivation to write and deep cleaned my kitchen and bathrooms instead, sweatily... as once again, I made the mistake of turning off the AC prior to my nap, lol. Now the first floor of our house (and upstairs bathrooms) are beautiful and I did manage to write about 118 words afterward. Yesterday I had some friends over and hurriedly wrote six words at 11:56pm to keep the streak alive, lol. Then I slept until about 10am this morning, so I must have really needed the rest (especially after staying up way too late on accident).
The first thing I did this morning was rearrange Thursday's writing and delete yesterday's hurriedly typed six words. At least I tried yesterday, lol. Then drank two coffees and got into the scene I'd started. I've gotten about 1400 words today, so it's going much better than the past couple of days. I think I just needed the school year to end and then do something different to recharge. Back in action and ready to finish this novel! I'm about 600 words from finishing this chapter and I think I'll be able to jump right into the next chapter afterward. :) I'll be a sadist once I post them with a million cliffhangers, but the next chunk of chapters really all happen one after the other, so it feels like it could be a really productive weekend if I get into the right groove with the end of this chapter.
How's everyone else doing after our quiet couple of days?
RokofAges75:
--- Quote from: nicksgal on May 29, 2021, 04:35:03 PM ---I think it would be an equal disservice to MBK if you just wrote song lyrics across three pages and skipped ahead to "after the tour..." lol. I'm trying to think of how to describe it either and I just don't think it works in a narrative. Even though it feels like you're skipping ahead, you're definitely right, a novel is not the correct medium to describe a complete concert, much like (as we've discussed), cinematic shorthand does not work in a novel.
I also hate when it feels like you have to include something to be accurate, no matter how much it feels unimportant. Because then "They were on tour" feels equally lazy and unnecessary unless it's to include that one of them fell off their LTL surfboards into the crowd or something. That feels like a reason to include a concert scene. Breaking MTV News: That fall likely killed the unlucky Backstreet Boy and the world mourned via candlelight vigil.
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Yep, I agree with all of this. Part of the problem is that I've locked myself into this format of alternating POVs every chapter, so while I have a lot of Kevin content to write during this period, I'm stuck trying to come up with enough Nick content to give him a chapter for every one of Kevin's. That is the downside to following a strict format like this; there's not as much flexibility as I would have if I had opted to just write in one character's POV or third person.
LOL I have actually written a couple of scenes similar to that which took place during the Millennium Tour, but alas, I don't have anything dramatic planned for this part of the tour. There was a time when I probably would have tried to come up with something just to make it more dramatic and interesting, but I guess I have grown up just a little bit.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on May 29, 2021, 04:35:03 PM ---Then what? Well... unfortunately then they still have to walk across the desert until they get where they're going, lol. :( I've struggled this week with the scene I thought came next, to the point of writing myself a note at the bottom of it on Thursday afternoon that said "[stuff?]" before deciding to skip to the next scene. I reread over both today and realized that there were a couple things worth pulling from it for elsewhere, but it probably felt like it dragged because it felt both like an unnecessary transition and really repetitive. I decided to cut it (and save it for now until I decide on the right places for the things I want to keep); now the chapter feels a little punchier. Thank goodness! Because if I was getting bored and unfocused, I can only imagine how anyone reading it would feel.
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Good for you! It's so hard to cut a scene, but it sounds like you made the right choice. This is another case where it would be better if you were making a movie - then you could just include a few shots of them trudging across the desert set to some dramatic music and move on to the next scene.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on May 29, 2021, 04:35:03 PM ---I think that's what I dislike about transition parts the most. They feel necessary for orientation purposes, but we obviously chose to skip that part of the story for a reason, so then they feel unnecessary. That makes them a necessary evil then, I suppose. Although, I'd believe it if Hot Mess Nick woke up hungover one morning and thought "October? F-- what have I been doing the past month?" haha.
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LOL! That could be the equivalent of Bella Swan's dramatic "October. November. December" across three pages.
--- Quote from: nicksgal on May 29, 2021, 04:35:03 PM ---Although, I feel like my best transitions across skipped time have been when I could just sum it up as "After blah blah blah, and now we're back in the moment." It just feels quick and painless that way. And there's definitely some times where part of me feels like an important part got skipped, but then I try to weave it in later as a "flashback" when it feels like another character needs to know about it. I guess I'm lucky in that most of my time skips are "and they were walking from place to place and this is unnecessary to your understanding of the story other than knowing they walked" as opposed to "this is real time BSB (or at least accurate to its time BSB) and important stuff does happen during the tour and the concerts, but as a whole the blow-by-blow of these actual events is not that important to your understanding of the story. That makes right now frustrating because they walk, but important things happen along the way that just wouldn't work with a flashback later since they're part of the climax of the story.
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I agree, those short transitions are the best!
There are a couple of things that are important to Nick's character and plot development that I'm trying to show on this tour, so I'm trying to just focus my scenes on those and summarize the rest. And yeah, they wouldn't work well as flashbacks, although that can be a good technique for some scenes/stories.
nicksgal:
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 29, 2021, 05:03:28 PM ---Yep, I have been there too. If only we were one-shot writers; then it wouldn't matter if we posted whatever we wrote on a whim.
I wonder what the difference was that finally got you to stick with PNecklace this time around. Do you think it was the pandemic and having more time at home to write? Or did the time off make it seem fresh and fun again? Or did you just hit the right part in the story? Or maybe it was a combination of all of the above. I wish there was some magic formula that I could apply to Guilty Roads, which is my equivalent of Gobosei.
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Right?! It felt so nice to write my little holiday story and then think, "Oh, I wrote this and now it's done forever. Hooray!" lol Meanwhile in novel land six months later... still trucking along, lol.
I have some guesses just based on the timing, even though I'm not totally sure. It probably started with the omnipresent feeling of both Nick and AJ on tv weekly (at the time) and my brain probably thought "This year is complicated. Remember how we used to write when things were complicated? Here's an old friend that might resonate with you in this time of 90's nostalgia as you try to process things." *enter PBox Nick* "HEL~LO! I've returned to bother-- *ahem* inspire you until you do something about it!" lol
I've definitely spent most of my free time in the past decade out doing things, like volunteering for various organizations, so it probably felt (though I never really thought about it much) that there just wasn't time to write. That and the last two times I had any sort of inspiration were both around the time I was back in school for my licensure program, so it just felt busier doing all those things. This time? There was busy, but also a lot of not busy since many things were virtual or closed.
I also think it helped that I decided to reread PBox before I started writing and it had enough seeds for the rest of the complete story to get invested in and remember where I was headed. And again, that PBox Nick is a loud and picky spotlight hog, lol. I always did really love the characters in PBox; it always felt like they were what breathed life into the story, rather than the idea itself. And it felt like reconnecting with an old friend after a long time.
That's a lesson I've taken from all of this. I've always thought characters were a strength in my writing, but I've definitely thought more about just how important a compelling and breathing character is to the story. Coupled with an idea with investment and I think it was easy enough to pick PBox&Co back up. And then I look at my two more "recent" old ideas, besides PBox and think... Okay, Gobosei, I always found to be an idea with investment, it's one I always said I go back to (even back then), but as it stands (and probably the reason PBox stayed pushy), the characters were less compelling and didn't breathe quite the same way. Beta Sigma Beta is the opposite; I no longer feel invested in the idea, but think back on the characters being more compelling. One of those things feels easier to tweak in a rewrite, mainly because the Boys had compelling moments in Gobosei, but now that I've written over half of grimdark and epic PBox, it feels as though the original plan for Gobosei feels too much like PBox and what was compelling about it when I looked back over it briefly were actually the more light-hearted aspects. And it still feels like I can adjust the narrative to give more of those things the focus.
Didn't you say that where you left off Guilty Roads was a part where it felt like Nick wouldn't do whatever it is he was doing? If Guilty Roads still seems compelling enough, maybe that's the thing you should look at. Either going back and adjusting Nick from the beginning to be someone who would get to that point and do what you wanted him to do or letting him pick up and do what he wanted to do and figure out how to adjust the timeline of the plan or change the plan completely to fit with that. I also think that going back and changing the beginning wouldn't be the worst thing after this much time if that's what you felt like needed to be done for the story to work. I'll be honest, I will probably change some things for what's posted of Gobosei when the time comes and feel zero guilt about it since it only got a little ways in (whereas despite feeling that the rewrite of PBox was necessary, I was more meticulous about what I allowed myself to change). I don't know if any of this is the road map to a "magic formula," but maybe it's a start for us both to pick back up our long hiatus projects. :)
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 29, 2021, 05:03:28 PM ---I don't think coffee's so bad. Even most diets allow you to drink black coffee and tea. Of course, I only drink beige coffee with a ton of creamer in it, so never mind that LOL. Coffee itself is more natural than the various cleanses and shakes offered by those wellness MLMs.
I have tried switching from diet soda to bubbly water, and it's just not the same. I have yet to find a bubbly water that has enough flavor without tasting like flat soda. What's your favorite brand and flavor? And do they make a bubbly water with caffeine? LOL
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If I remember correctly, it was mushroom "coffee." Blech! Another great use of the barfing emoji we don't have, lmao! I didn't used to be a black coffee drinker, but it's definitely grown on me in the past year. I do enjoy a latte every now and again still though, so you drink your beige coffee with pride.
Team Pamplemousse! (LaCroix) But I do enjoy their lemon and lime from time to time as well. I think it's about finding flavors you enjoy in their natural state. If you're not a huge grapefruit fan, pamplemousse might not be your jam. I like LaCroix better than the other brands, but in my first ventures into bubbly water there was a more colorful brand that I drank first, I think it was "Sparkling Ice"? It eventually felt too sugary and it was an easy transition to LaCroix. LaCorix is usually on sale though and enough other people like it that if it's not your thing, you can share it. I think Aha has caffeinated flavors? And Hi-Ball sounds familiar?
--- Quote from: RokofAges75 on May 29, 2021, 05:03:28 PM ---LOL Oh no! Well, at least you get a three-day weekend first.
I had two girls in tears yesterday! So dramatic LOL. It's nice to feel loved though.
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Thank goodness, lol.
Aww. You're so loved! That is sweet. I had no tears, just pizza for our half day, lol.
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