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[RokofAges75]

This is a great thread from the Writing subreddit.  "The most painful lessons I've learned about creative writing": https://www.reddit.com/r/writing/comments/o9l1rh/the_most_painful_lessons_ive_learned_about/

There's a lot of great advice in there.  Some of it is stuff we've already talked about, but I also took away some new tidbits.  Like changing the font when I'm rereading/editing to help my eyes catch missing words and other mistakes?  We were just talking about that in the WTF Google thread, so I'll have to try that as I give my chapters the final proofread before posting them.  I did try the writing in Comic Sans thing and didn't find it made much difference, but it's hard to tell from only one trial.

The one about outlining too much and treating your characters like puppets, forcing decisions and conflicts that don't really work for the sake of the potentially faulty plot, definitely hit home for me.  That is one problem us planners and plot-driven writers tend to run into.  I think I've gotten better at being flexible with my outlines and not forcing my characters to act uncharacterist ically, but it's still hard to change directions and go one way when I really wanted to go another way.

What advice stands out to you, and what would you add to it?

[RokofAges75]

Here's another good one I found on editing, with specific things to look for when proofreading a story: https://www.reddit.com/r/writing/comments/o9mi1k/run_a_consistency_check_on_your_work/

[RokofAges75]

Our conversation about how the stage is transported overseas for a tour gave me an idea for another question for whoever wants to answer.  What are other aspects of celebrity/musician/rich people life you've wondered about while writing and never found a definite answer for (or maybe never even tried to find out)?

This sounds so dumb, but I don't really understand how gated communities and homes work.  Like for a gated community, is there a code you enter to open the gate, or is there a guard on duty all the time to let residents through?  What about the gates celebrities have in front of their driveways?  Do people have to enter a code to get through, or is there an intercom they can use to call the person who lives there to let them in?   Could it be either?  I don't live in an area with gated communities and don't know anyone who has a gate in front of their driveway, so this is something I'm completely unfamiliar with.

I also googled the question "Do celebrities have health insurance?" earlier in the writing of this story LOL.  I didn't know if really rich people needed it, or if they just paid out of pocket for whatever medical expenses came up.  The answer I got was probably yes, so that's what I went with.  It makes the most sense.  I mean, why would you pay way more than you needed to for healthcare, even if you could afford it?

[mare]

Most celebrities have health coverage from wherever they are most employed by. Usually the artist or the actual record company supplies the coverage. That’s how it has worked for my friends in the music/movie industry.

[nicksgal]

This is a great thread from the Writing subreddit.  "The most painful lessons I've learned about creative writing": https://www.reddit.com/r/writing/comments/o9l1rh/the_most_painful_lessons_ive_learned_about/

There's a lot of great advice in there.  Some of it is stuff we've already talked about, but I also took away some new tidbits.  Like changing the font when I'm rereading/editing to help my eyes catch missing words and other mistakes?  We were just talking about that in the WTF Google thread, so I'll have to try that as I give my chapters the final proofread before posting them.  I did try the writing in Comic Sans thing and didn't find it made much difference, but it's hard to tell from only one trial.

The one about outlining too much and treating your characters like puppets, forcing decisions and conflicts that don't really work for the sake of the potentially faulty plot, definitely hit home for me.  That is one problem us planners and plot-driven writers tend to run into.  I think I've gotten better at being flexible with my outlines and not forcing my characters to act uncharacterist ically, but it's still hard to change directions and go one way when I really wanted to go another way.

What advice stands out to you, and what would you add to it?

That is a lot of good advice, even if it's stuff we've talked about here. For the different font, this is part of my editing process! It's a lot of why I do use "suggest mode" to edit because it makes everything green. If I'm editing, I leave it all until I finish the chapter, then reread back the whole chapter with the green bits and it will usually end up helping me catch things I missed because I'm switching back and forth between the colors. Then the final step is posting to AC and giving it a cursory skim while I format. Since the AC font is so different, I will still catch a few things or notice a place the text is awkward.

The one that really resonated with me (I won't say stood out) was "If you start to hate writing or you feel like something isn’t right, STOP." I've said it before, but I think I honestly needed time off from writing to really get back into a creative head space. There were times fandom was lonely because of it, but it all worked out for the best. I think this is scary advice if writing is something anyone spends a lot of time on, but I think there's definitely a point where forcing through it just isn't worth it. All that said, I do think making writing a habit is a good thing, but if I was truly unmotivated, I think I would let the streak die for at least a little bit.

I can't think of other advice that isn't in there and painful. I guess it's that the times I've been happiest writing were when I tempered my expectations, "dance like no one is watching" if you will (except I will always dance even when people are watching, lol). There was something really freeing about telling myself "Chances are high that no one will read what you're writing." And of course it makes me happy that people do (I would love to talk to them more), but just still being interested in writing even if that was a high chance was enough to keep me going. I'm not explaining this well, lol.

Here's another good one I found on editing, with specific things to look for when proofreading a story: https://www.reddit.com/r/writing/comments/o9mi1k/run_a_consistency_check_on_your_work/

I laughed so hard at the comment later on about listing colors of furniture with semicolons. I am an ellipses nut! I should be better about them, but...

[nicksgal]

Our conversation about how the stage is transported overseas for a tour gave me an idea for another question for whoever wants to answer.  What are other aspects of celebrity/musician/rich people life you've wondered about while writing and never found a definite answer for (or maybe never even tried to find out)?

I've always wanted to know what a typical work-day schedule is. Do they always wake up at the same time? Have the same breakfast? What personal things do they make time for (or only if they stick to a routine)? What's the absolute latest they can be for a sound check (or what have you) without getting called out on it? What's a post-show ritual they can't go to sleep without doing? I'm sure it's different for everyone.

How long do they get to practice their parts before recording? What's the turnaround time on learning choreography? Do they save mementos from tours? Like does someone still have their surfboard?

Just random stuff like that?

This sounds so dumb, but I don't really understand how gated communities and homes work.  Like for a gated community, is there a code you enter to open the gate, or is there a guard on duty all the time to let residents through?  What about the gates celebrities have in front of their driveways?  Do people have to enter a code to get through, or is there an intercom they can use to call the person who lives there to let them in?   Could it be either?  I don't live in an area with gated communities and don't know anyone who has a gate in front of their driveway, so this is something I'm completely unfamiliar with.

I have an answer for this, but you're not going to like it, lol! Because... it depends on the community. Many of the pricier ones will have gate attendants, but only for certain days or times (though I'm sure some may be staffed in shifts 24 hours a day, I just haven't run into any of those); I think this is more for security than actual gate attending. Otherwise, the gates are typically coded. Sometimes they have two different gates, one for residents and one for guests. And keycards for residents are becoming more of the norm than code boxes, though there is still that option for guests. The code a guest inputs might be tied to an individual home or it might be a communal "guest code" that changes frequently. I will add the caveat that I have not been to gated communities with A-lister celebrities, so they might lean more toward a staffed gate, but they also may not.

I can't speak for certain on the individual driveway gates one way or the other, but a friend does some contracting work for a local celebrity and says it's a code for them (I asked once, but more along the lines of "how do you get into their house if they aren't home to let you in?"). But I assume it depends on if they pay someone to watch that. I know that if I had a friend coming over, I'd rather they could just let themselves in instead of me having to press a million buttons to buzz them through, at least until they got to the actual front door, lol.

So like, Justin "24 hour parenting is not normal" Timberlake probably has a buzzer, whereas I could see Nick not wanting to get up from what he was doing to let someone in until they got to the door. Didn't Rose say she'd been to his area when she was younger? She might have a more Backstreet-adjacent specific answer on this one.

[nicksgal]

Most celebrities have health coverage from wherever they are most employed by. Usually the artist or the actual record company supplies the coverage. That’s how it has worked for my friends in the music/movie industry.

This makes sense to me, because I think even if you could afford to pay full medical bills out of pocket, why would you want to?

[nicksgal]

Aw yay, somewhere between 4 and 9 people were looking at PBox's featured story thread. Thanks guests!

[RokofAges75]

Most celebrities have health coverage from wherever they are most employed by. Usually the artist or the actual record company supplies the coverage. That’s how it has worked for my friends in the music/movie industry.

Hey, thanks!  That's good to know.  I figured they would have to get private insurance on their own since they don't have a typical job that would come with those kinds of benefits, but it makes sense that if they're signed to a record company, the record company would provide that.  I guess they would have a vested interest in making sure their acts have access to healthcare LOL.

[RokofAges75]

That is a lot of good advice, even if it's stuff we've talked about here. For the different font, this is part of my editing process! It's a lot of why I do use "suggest mode" to edit because it makes everything green. If I'm editing, I leave it all until I finish the chapter, then reread back the whole chapter with the green bits and it will usually end up helping me catch things I missed because I'm switching back and forth between the colors. Then the final step is posting to AC and giving it a cursory skim while I format. Since the AC font is so different, I will still catch a few things or notice a place the text is awkward.

You know, I use suggest mode when I'm giving my students feedback on their writing, but I always forget about it when I'm writing myself.  Normally I think all the green and strikethroughs would bother me, but I could have used it last night.  I ended up cutting out a few paragraphs from a previous Kevin chapter, but I didn't want to completely delete them until I had filled the gap between what came before that part and what came after to make sure it still flowed well, so I just awkwardly wrote around it until I felt comfortable deleting it.  That would have been the perfect time to turn on suggest mode.

The one that really resonated with me (I won't say stood out) was "If you start to hate writing or you feel like something isn’t right, STOP." I've said it before, but I think I honestly needed time off from writing to really get back into a creative head space. There were times fandom was lonely because of it, but it all worked out for the best. I think this is scary advice if writing is something anyone spends a lot of time on, but I think there's definitely a point where forcing through it just isn't worth it. All that said, I do think making writing a habit is a good thing, but if I was truly unmotivated, I think I would let the streak die for at least a little bit.

That one resonated with me as well.  I've never stopped writing for more than a few months at a time, but even in my day-to-day writing, I can tell when I've hit a wall and it's time to stop for that session because forcing myself to keep staring at the computer is not going to get me anywhere.  The nice thing about making it part of a daily routine is that I can just say, "I'll come back to this tomorrow, if not before" instead of wondering when I'll work up the motivation to open the story again.  The times when I have taken months off have been because I was busy and overwhelmed with real life stuff and couldn't devote enough time to writing without taking it away from something more important (but not necessarily enjoyable).  As much as I love it, fanfic just became one more thing that stressed me out because of the pressure I put on myself to keep writing, keep updating, so I had to give myself permission to take a break from it until I had more time.  When I was backdating chapters of SAMS on AO3 yesterday, I got to the point in the story where I literally didn't update it for eleven months because of that.  I'm glad I've been able to get back on track.  I'm sure that must have been even harder for you after being away so long, but it sounds like it was the right decision for you to make.  You do seem to be enjoying it a lot more than you did right before your hiatus.

I can't think of other advice that isn't in there and painful. I guess it's that the times I've been happiest writing were when I tempered my expectations, "dance like no one is watching" if you will (except I will always dance even when people are watching, lol). There was something really freeing about telling myself "Chances are high that no one will read what you're writing." And of course it makes me happy that people do (I would love to talk to them more), but just still being interested in writing even if that was a high chance was enough to keep me going. I'm not explaining this well, lol.

You explained it perfectly!  I get what you're saying, and I agree.  We've said it before, but we have to write for ourselves first and foremost - because we enjoy it, and because we have a story to tell that we believe in and want to finish, even if no one else reads it.  Feedback is wonderful, but so is the satisfaction of finishing a project you've worked hard on, whether or not anyone else acknowledges your effort.  It's that intrinsic motivation.

I think that comes with experience.  It's easier to write for yourself and not worry about feedback when you get to the point where you actually enjoy your own writing.  I still enjoy and look forward to feedback, but I don't beat myself up and wonder what I did wrong if I don't get it.  I hadn't gotten any in a couple weeks and had accepted that maybe what I'm enjoying writing just isn't what other people want to read right now.  Then, out of nowhere, I got a comment on my site from a reader who has given pretty regular feedback on the last few stories I wrote before MBK.  She apologized for being MIA the last few months, said she had just been busy, but got caught up on the story so far and was loving it.  Just a reminder that you never know who's reading or why someone may have stopped reading - often times it has nothing to do with your story at all.  We're just at that age where life happens.

I laughed so hard at the comment later on about listing colors of furniture with semicolons. I am an ellipses nut! I should be better about them, but...

LOL!  I enjoy ellipses as long as they're not overused... and I love semicolons!  I did not understand the semicolon hate in that thread; I think semicolons are a sophisticated alternative to the comma and conjunction combo.

[RokofAges75]

I've always wanted to know what a typical work-day schedule is. Do they always wake up at the same time? Have the same breakfast? What personal things do they make time for (or only if they stick to a routine)? What's the absolute latest they can be for a sound check (or what have you) without getting called out on it? What's a post-show ritual they can't go to sleep without doing? I'm sure it's different for everyone.

How long do they get to practice their parts before recording? What's the turnaround time on learning choreography? Do they save mementos from tours? Like does someone still have their surfboard?

Just random stuff like that?

Those are all great questions!  I have also wondered what they do all day before a show (or at least before soundcheck).  And how quickly they can pick up new songs and choreography.  The videos of BackSync rehearsing at Lance's house were super cute.  They reminded me of the year I did a 90s boyband number with a group of teachers at my school for the teacher act in our talent show; we learned the choreo for Everybody and Bye Bye Bye and rehearsed in my classroom just like that LOL.

It seems like they do save mementos.  Brian loaned a ton of stuff to the Grammy Museum exhibit, so it seems like he keeps a lot.  AJ posted a TikTok with a shirt he'd worn onstage during the Black & Blue tour.  I'm not sure about the surfboards, but that would have been a cool thing to keep!

They should just film a reality show during their next tour or album cycle and give us some answers!

I have an answer for this, but you're not going to like it, lol! Because... it depends on the community. Many of the pricier ones will have gate attendants, but only for certain days or times (though I'm sure some may be staffed in shifts 24 hours a day, I just haven't run into any of those); I think this is more for security than actual gate attending. Otherwise, the gates are typically coded. Sometimes they have two different gates, one for residents and one for guests. And keycards for residents are becoming more of the norm than code boxes, though there is still that option for guests. The code a guest inputs might be tied to an individual home or it might be a communal "guest code" that changes frequently. I will add the caveat that I have not been to gated communities with A-lister celebrities, so they might lean more toward a staffed gate, but they also may not.

I can't speak for certain on the individual driveway gates one way or the other, but a friend does some contracting work for a local celebrity and says it's a code for them (I asked once, but more along the lines of "how do you get into their house if they aren't home to let you in?"). But I assume it depends on if they pay someone to watch that. I know that if I had a friend coming over, I'd rather they could just let themselves in instead of me having to press a million buttons to buzz them through, at least until they got to the actual front door, lol.

So like, Justin "24 hour parenting is not normal" Timberlake probably has a buzzer, whereas I could see Nick not wanting to get up from what he was doing to let someone in until they got to the door. Didn't Rose say she'd been to his area when she was younger? She might have a more Backstreet-adjacent specific answer on this one.

LOL I do like your answer because it sounds like it could be any of the above, which means whatever I've written on this topic in my stories was probably fine.  Thanks!  All that makes perfect sense.

I know Nick lives in a gated community called Southern Highlands, so he probably doesn't even have a gate in front of his own driveway.  Rose would probably know more.

Also, LMAO at Justin "24 hour parenting is not normal" Timberlake.  What an entitled douche.

[FrickingKaos]

How is everyone’s writing going? I’ve been doing pretty good even without feedback, which like I said previously is very surprising. I usually am able to crank out a chapter a week, depending on when during the week I get one started. I try to shoot for updating on Mondays, Wednesday at the latest. I think this system has helped me a lot, not to mention it seems like I am more productive writing at night than I am during the day.

Does anyone else have a preferred time they write?

[FrickingKaos]

In response to the gated community discussion I can kind of chime in here, my aunt lives in a gated community in Vegas just off of the Las Vegas strip. There was a gate at the entrance but not at each of the homes, and there was a little guard station but the guard wasn’t always there. I think she had to show some kind of card in front of the sensor fo the gate to go up.

I looked up where Nick lives and he lives on the edge of a golf course, according to google maps. His house is pretty easy to find, but it doesn’t have a gate around the actual house just around the community where he lives. Sorry for sounding like a stalker lol but I was on this website about celebrity homes and Nick’s just happened to be on there.

[RokofAges75]

How is everyone’s writing going? I’ve been doing pretty good even without feedback, which like I said previously is very surprising. I usually am able to crank out a chapter a week, depending on when during the week I get one started. I try to shoot for updating on Mondays, Wednesday at the latest. I think this system has helped me a lot, not to mention it seems like I am more productive writing at night than I am during the day.

Does anyone else have a preferred time they write?

You're on a roll!  Good for you!  Sounds like you've gotten into a good routine.

My writing is going pretty well this week, although I didn't write as much this morning as I have the last two days and am not going to make my Nano goal.  I'm on the last scene of Chapter 23, so my goal for today is just to finish that chapter so I can start July Camp Nano on a new chapter.

Here is our group again, in case anyone else would like to join us and set a goal for Camp Nano.  It starts tomorrow!  https://nanowrimo.org/writing-groups/the-absolutely-chaotic-backstreet-project

I am back to my night owl writing routine as well.  I had been doing my best writing first thing in the morning after I wake up, but now that I'm staying up later and sleeping until later in the day, I can't justify staying in bed ALL day to write.  At some point I have to get up and take care of stuff I can't do in the middle of the night, like errands and yard work.  So I've switched to writing late at night, which has always been my favorite time to write.  It has rained like every night the last two weeks, so I've been going upstairs to my writing room where I can hear the rain on the roof and open the window because it's cooler at night, and it's been so pleasant!

[RokofAges75]

In response to the gated community discussion I can kind of chime in here, my aunt lives in a gated community in Vegas just off of the Las Vegas strip. There was a gate at the entrance but not at each of the homes, and there was a little guard station but the guard wasn’t always there. I think she had to show some kind of card in front of the sensor fo the gate to go up.

I looked up where Nick lives and he lives on the edge of a golf course, according to google maps. His house is pretty easy to find, but it doesn’t have a gate around the actual house just around the community where he lives. Sorry for sounding like a stalker lol but I was on this website about celebrity homes and Nick’s just happened to be on there.

Thanks, Tracy!  That looks like how Nick's community works too.  I have also creeped it on Google Maps and used Street View to see what the entrance to the community looks like.  There's a sign directing visitors to check in at the guard station, whereas residents can scan their card or whatever for the gate to go up.

It's crazy how much information you can find on the internet these days.  That's how I was able to piece together a blueprint of Kevin's old house, because there are still pictures from the real estate listing online from when he sold it back in 2009.  I've got the same thing for Nick's Franklin house and relied on those pictures a lot when I was writing Curtain Call and other stories that took place when he still owned it.  It is helpful to us as writers, but also a little scary when it comes to finding info on their current homes.  Good thing they have those gates and security guards! LOL