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Author Topic: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)  (Read 131369 times)

RokofAges75

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2021, 03:44:42 PM »

I was going to ask Dee this, but thought it would be a fun topic for everyone to discuss.  We were talking about breakout stories, the first story you wrote that was actually decent and wouldn't make you cringe to go back and read it now.

What was your breakout story?

When did you write it, and/or how old were you when you wrote it?

How did that story change you as a writer?

Why do you think the quality of your writing improved with that story?
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~Julie

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RokofAges75

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2021, 04:04:44 PM »

I mean, I would, except I have zero Kevin-focused ideas. And in an effort to challenge myself to focus on Kevin's Kevin-ness as an individual, starting from "I should write a Kevin story" seems like a terrible idea. It's why "I should give Howie something important to do" would have been terribly executed outside of having a role that would be a good fit for him in a larger narrative (and getting to introduce Brian still sidelined him despite that).

I agree, it's better to have an actual idea than start with "I should write a Kevin story" and try to force one.  This is why it has taken me so long to write a Kevin novel, too, and why I only have one Howie novel.  I love them both, but let's be honest - neither are my favorites, so why would I force an idea about them when I could just keep writing about Brian or Nick? LOL  It needs to come naturally and be something you're actually interested in writing.  But maybe that idea will come someday.


I guess the point of this long list was that when the mood to write struck, I was still mostly writing BSB fanfic, it just didn't stick for very long. Who knows if it would have if I'd thought "Inspiration? Be around BSB fans again?" or not. Thanks AJ and Nick for being on reality tv at the same time. I guess I was right when I said AJ spurs inspirational moments, then Nick latches on to them and steers. It did feel a little lonely committing to a fanfic without everyone around, but I think that had more to do with all this than with not having anyone to read it.

I'm impressed with how productive and consistent you've been since officially coming back, especially after dabbling with writing fanfic here and there over the years without sticking with it.  I definitely think having a writing community to talk shop with helps.  I have never been comfortable  talking about my writing or sharing it with other people in person, but I love doing it here.  It helps to keep me motivated more than the boys themselves do.

Thanks! :-* I'm sure it was even more difficult for you to pick with your extensive body of work! I could at least say, "definitely something from PBox." I think it's the length of a scene that made it tricky. If it said "which novel would you pick to showcase your entire portfolio," that seems like an easy enough answer. Narrowing down the novel to chapter was harder, but I figured if I could narrow it down to a chapter, I could find the perfect scene.

So I started thinking about what would need to be in a chapter or scene to showcase what's typical for my work and made a mental list. It had to be character-focused, it had to feature world building of some sort, there had to specifically be some of the mythos of the world building featured, fantastical elements, a fight scene would be a good addition since I write a lot of them, some good descriptive chunks, great dialogue, character interactions were a must. Plus it had to be short enough to share and not give away major spoilers, lol.

And I thought, uh... How am I going to find all of that and fit the short/no spoilers requirement? I was able to narrow it down to two chapters, but couldn't decide on a specific chunk to pull out of them, especially because as PBox neared its end, "scene" and "chapter" basically became synonymous. I decided there wasn't a fight scene I could pull that had enough of the other typical elements without having major spoilers, so I started thinking of character focused ones that included mythos type things and settled on either the first or last scene of "To The Castle" and figured you all would enjoy the last scene more since it featured all five of the Boys fairly equally rather than the Nick lean of the first scene, plus more mythos-based fantastical elements. But then realized it was too long to post here in its entirety when I previewed and just gave you all the castle, haha. ~1,200 words is still a lot!

Yes, picking an entire story would have been easier than just one scene.  My process was similar to yours; I made a mental list of the most important or prevalent elements of my writing and then started thinking about stories and specific scenes that had those elements, read a few of them, and narrowed it down to one that wouldn't spoil anything for the people who would read my answer on this forum.
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nicksgal

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2021, 04:07:03 PM »

LOL I think we all (except Rose) cringe at She's a Dream.  Oh Shorty...

Sorry, Rose! I forgot the other reason it makes me shake my head sometimes. Is that girl living under a rock? I get that it was 2009 and not 1999, but even in 2009 she still doesn't know what a Backstreet Boy is and she's old enough to date one? And her guy is gone all the time, what does he tell her he's doing for a job where he's not around for a good chunk of time? And other people have to recognize him when they go out! I get telling your family that you don't want to talk about your job, but still... How does that girl not know?! In hindsight, maybe this is my least favorite song on that album, lol!


I wondered if the fact that you're still working on the PBox series is what gave you the motivation to go back and do all that rewriting.  It makes sense to want the beginning of the series to be of the same quality as the later stories you're writing many years after you started.  If I was still working on BMS, maybe I would be more interested in going back and revising Broken.

Still writing compounded by "after so many years" is probably a lot of it. Since it's finished, but the whole story isn't finished, I do want them all to feel similar and not have one stand out as "a new young adult wrote this" and the rest be "a thirty-year old wrote this." Although, since I did start editing the first nine chapters back in 2008, I probably would have still edited a little bit if the two novels were closer together, but likely just that 10/11/12 chunk and called it good.

I'm glad you have had the chance to work on other things besides BMS. I feel like 2007 you would have been very sad to have to put it on hold during your Masters program.


I also have not participated in any other fandoms, real person or otherwise, so I'm not sure.  But I think you have a great point.  There's so much you can do with the Boys as themselves without making it AU, and AU offers even more possibilities.  The "canon" is constantly changing as time goes by and new events happen in their careers and personal lives, which opens up even more possibilities, whereas the canon is much more limited when you're writing about fictional characters.

I think the more wide-open canon helps. Now I kind of want to poke around on a more recent boy band and see what their fanfic is like. Not in-depth or anything, just to see what kind of genres are represented.
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~*Dee*~

People think it would be fun to be a bird because you could fly. But they forget the negative side, which is the preening.

From "And Now, Deep Thoughts" by Jack Handey

nicksgal

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2021, 04:48:59 PM »

I agree, it's better to have an actual idea than start with "I should write a Kevin story" and try to force one.  This is why it has taken me so long to write a Kevin novel, too, and why I only have one Howie novel.  I love them both, but let's be honest - neither are my favorites, so why would I force an idea about them when I could just keep writing about Brian or Nick? LOL  It needs to come naturally and be something you're actually interested in writing.  But maybe that idea will come someday.

Maybe it will! I'm not sure what idea will scream "Kevin" to me, but there's gotta be one out there. I agree, why force a Kevin story when I can dedicate more thousands of words to Nick! He just begs to be written about, haha.


I'm impressed with how productive and consistent you've been since officially coming back, especially after dabbling with writing fanfic here and there over the years without sticking with it.  I definitely think having a writing community to talk shop with helps.  I have never been comfortable  talking about my writing or sharing it with other people in person, but I love doing it here.  It helps to keep me motivated more than the boys themselves do.

Thanks! I'm happy it finally stuck again, even knowing the catalyst, I'm still not sure what the differentiatin g factor was, but I'll take it.

I do think keeping track of my word count has helped me stay productive since starting, even if I don't have a specific goal (though I definitely got the most done in November). It reminds me that if I don't actually open the page and commit to writing something, nothing will get written. Nick poking helps. I just also make sure to remember that berating myself for not writing anything never actually helped, so I give myself more grace. I've lacked some motivation to write since getting my second dose, but I've focused on jotting down ideas and notes that come to me and include gems like "I probably should have figured this out before sending those chapters over," "Nick obviously has no idea what he's doing (does he ever?)," "Did he know this all along? What an ahole," and "This article says that (spoiler) probably smells like jungle juice, lmao."

Having a writing community is the best! It's nice to be able to talk writing and get lots of different perspectives on it and have people to bounce things off of, even if those things are just writing craft related things. I think it's been motivating for me too because it keeps my mind on writing even if I'm not physically writing anything.


Yes, picking an entire story would have been easier than just one scene.  My process was similar to yours; I made a mental list of the most important or prevalent elements of my writing and then started thinking about stories and specific scenes that had those elements, read a few of them, and narrowed it down to one that wouldn't spoil anything for the people who would read my answer on this forum.

"Nick has cancer and has to get his leg chopped off" is pretty common knowledge here even if anyone hasn't read Broken, lol. :)
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~*Dee*~

People think it would be fun to be a bird because you could fly. But they forget the negative side, which is the preening.

From "And Now, Deep Thoughts" by Jack Handey

RokofAges75

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2021, 05:42:29 PM »

Sorry, Rose! I forgot the other reason it makes me shake my head sometimes. Is that girl living under a rock? I get that it was 2009 and not 1999, but even in 2009 she still doesn't know what a Backstreet Boy is and she's old enough to date one? And her guy is gone all the time, what does he tell her he's doing for a job where he's not around for a good chunk of time? And other people have to recognize him when they go out! I get telling your family that you don't want to talk about your job, but still... How does that girl not know?! In hindsight, maybe this is my least favorite song on that album, lol!

Right?!?  I wrote a story making fun of dumbass Shorty for the fairy tale challenge we did here in 2013, and it was so much fun roasting her in a fanfic.  I hate that song so much.  It's my least favorite BSB song of all time.


I'm glad you have had the chance to work on other things besides BMS. I feel like 2007 you would have been very sad to have to put it on hold during your Masters program.

Me too!  I can't imagine how long BMS would be if I had still been working on it in 2013 LOL, but I'm glad I wasn't.  Though I may have found the time and energy to keep writing BMS during my master's program because I somehow did during student teaching and my first year of teaching, which had to have been the busiest, most stressful years of my life.  I still don't know how I did that.  Oh, to be young again LOL.


I think the more wide-open canon helps. Now I kind of want to poke around on a more recent boy band and see what their fanfic is like. Not in-depth or anything, just to see what kind of genres are represented.

I know One Direction fanfic was big a few years ago, and BTS fanfic seems to be popular on AO3.  If you do any poking around, let us know your findings.
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RokofAges75

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2021, 05:51:43 PM »

It reminds me that if I don't actually open the page and commit to writing something, nothing will get written. Nick poking helps. I just also make sure to remember that berating myself for not writing anything never actually helped, so I give myself more grace. I've lacked some motivation to write since getting my second dose, but I've focused on jotting down ideas and notes that come to me and include gems like "I probably should have figured this out before sending those chapters over," "Nick obviously has no idea what he's doing (does he ever?)," "Did he know this all along? What an ahole," and "This article says that (spoiler) probably smells like jungle juice, lmao."

This is all good advice.  You never know what you'll accomplish if you don't at least open the story and try.  But it's good to give yourself grace, especially when you have a good reason not to write.  Like, "I just got vaccinated, and my arm hurts, and I don't feel good."  Totally valid excuse to skip a day (or several days) and do nothing!  At the end of the day, this is a hobby, not a job - it should be fun, not feel like work.  If it gets to the point when it feels like a chore, stop forcing it and do something different.


I think it's been motivating for me too because it keeps my mind on writing even if I'm not physically writing anything.

This!  It has definitely helped keep me motivated during the work week so I can be productive on the weekends.  I even wrote on Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday this week.


"Nick has cancer and has to get his leg chopped off" is pretty common knowledge here even if anyone hasn't read Broken, lol. :)

LOL That's what I figured and why I was fine with the scene I picked.  That plot point has been talked about so much on this forum, it's no longer a spoiler.
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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2021, 05:56:56 PM »

Most of my stories are written in first person with five points of view. I find that the easiest way to write for some reason.

That probably seemed very random, but I saw it in conversation and sometimes these threads move so fast I can’t remember where so... lol
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RokofAges75

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2021, 06:00:37 PM »

Most of my stories are written in first person with five points of view. I find that the easiest way to write for some reason.

That probably seemed very random, but I saw it in conversation and sometimes these threads move so fast I can’t remember where so... lol

LOL No worries, we did talk about that the other day.  You were good at writing the five different POVs, and I don't remember it getting confusing in your stories.
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nicksgal

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2021, 07:07:17 PM »

I was going to ask Dee this, but thought it would be a fun topic for everyone to discuss.  We were talking about breakout stories, the first story you wrote that was actually decent and wouldn't make you cringe to go back and read it now.

I sort of answered the first two, but not the second two! Although, I do think there's some level of cringe with any old work, especially if there's growth in craft (or life experience for certain elements) between the beginning and the end or then and now.

What was your breakout story?

Probably Gobosei or PBox, but we can all call it PBox since it was complete for several years with minimal cringe and Gobosei is not complete while still possessing some minimal cringe. None of this cringe stops the readability for me though.

When did you write it, and/or how old were you when you wrote it?

Gobosei: 2005-2006, 2013, 2015 (17/18, 25, 27)

PBox: 2005-2008 with an update from September 2020-January 2021 (17-20, 32-barely 33)

How did that story change you as a writer?/Why do you think the quality of your writing improved with that story?

I realized that I was answering both of these questions as the same time, so I'm just going to put them together.

Gobosei was my second foray in characters driving the plot, so I worked very hard developing character arcs and focusing on how the characters would react to the plot and drive it forward. The strength of character and character planning in addition to general enjoyment of the plot is probably why I feel like the pull to go back and finish it at some point has merit. Prior to this, I tended to focus on plot ideas and only vaguely on character development, even though in my own reading I chose books for character development. As I learned about character development (and I read many books about it since coming up with that 2003 OF), I started basing characters on people I knew, pretty much to a T, but they weren't doing anything good for the plot or being shaped by the plot, they just kind of... were? Which is why there's other stories I wrote as a high schooler that make me cringe, even ones I would have started around the same time. It got fixed earlier in that 2003 OF because I had a friend reading along that knew I based a character off of them, wholly supported it, and had zero qualms telling me "this sucks" when it did suck. I took this perspective to heart and started looking at my fanfics with the same lens. (The delay in finishing that one was my art ability being worse than my writing ability. That and episodic writing is hard. It also got pushed to the side for our favorite pushy novel.)

All of that makes me see why self-insert stories would have been popular outside of "My life would be awesome if I dated a Backstreet Boy." It's easier to write a character when you know how they would react to things! But this has the same problem as "my friends are characters" if there's no character development over the course of the story. This is all very vague for Gobosei since there's not much there for anyone else to say "oh yes, all these things are there in it," but they're there in it with the whole picture in my head.

But along came pushy PBox that leapt to life, especially after I realized that Nick wasn't a character who was going to go along with the plot, even when the plot happened. More than just being a character, he was protagonist who was going to make the plot happen, grow, and change as he continued on his journey, grew, and changed. And more than being just a reactor (which he's great at), he's a real doer. He's probably the reason it leapt to life more than anything else, so all that hard work on character development really paid off. And over the years, he's ultimately continued to breathe life into it as an entity, something akin to "You're writing it, but this is my story. I drive this bus." (It's cool, Nick, keep driving the bus. I trust you.)

Even with strong characters, I came to the realization that PBox was dark. Even with "our demons are different" at play (which is a type of dark in and of itself if your main characters are this "typically always malevolently chaotic evil" type thing; not that PBox demons are that, or at least not our Boys, they're downright heroic saving innocent bystanders and taking cats out of trees in their free time), it was incredibly dark in a way that Gobosei was not and that I had shied away from in the past. But I wanted to write it and Nick wanted control of that bus... immensely. But how to write a very dark thing? Well? The writing to needed to mature; the fun-fest jokey and at times ridiculous way of writing a Gobosei wouldn't fly for a PBox, not with its inherent setting of "the world is crummy." I learned to embrace the dark (Team Dark!) and how to draw lines for too dark, which I kept crossing as time went on. I guess I learned that you have to write dark things a certain way and saved my fun-fest jokey writing for stories that would support it.

Gobosei is also largely based in our world as is, so it wasn't a whole new adventure world building. At minimum, Gobosei required a "how does this magic system work?" PBox required that and a whole slew of things from geography to climate to political systems to cultural norms and so on. Creating these things meant I had to learn how to research (in a different way than for writing a paper or doing a project in school) and research hard! Even things that wouldn't seem like they needed research, like "how does this magic system work," but that has been a constant fun romp in researching and has gotten me down so many rabbit holes I never knew I would end up in just based on the nature of the answer. I wish I'd kept track of my hours of research because it would be something else, as I'm sure you all know in your own adventures in researching.

And it wasn't only world building or plot elements. I wanted to have fight scenes which I'd never written before, so I watched hours of kung fu movies and sword fighting movies. I've watched fencing competitions. I know a ridiculous amount of vocabulary for parts of weapons that is not useful in any other aspect of my life; at least kung fu movies are just fun. When that Bruce Lee 30 for 30 aired last year, I actually jotted down some notes (though that isn't directly applicable to PBox, it fits this overall point). If an exhibit came to one of our museums that felt relevant, I went (outside of my love for museums). I'd include my mythology related research in this too, but that's just fun and a regular hobby that happens to tie into my love of writing. I have run the gambit of things I've researched for PBox from "plants that typically grow in x climate" to "how the body reacts to toxins and poisons" to "furniture of the Muromachi era" to "how do big things fly." And those are just four examples, in addition to specific ones I listed.

In the name of character development, I also had to learn how to portray real things in believable, nuanced, and non-hand waving ways. Nick is, essentially, an amnesiac with PTSD, so what does that actually look like in real life and not in fiction land? This includes research, but then how to turn research into believable narrative? It's all super subtle and it's only improved with time, since writing is an ongoing process. I don't know if anyone noticed this, for instance, but Nick (especially in the beginning of PBox) usually stands with his back to walls so he can see everything happening in the room and react as needed; he does it less as time goes on because he has other people to "watch his back."

While Gobosei helped me start improving on my meaningful dialogue/character interactions, PBox helped me improve on description because I did all this research and creating that couldn't just be explained with a "they were at a mall" type thing because none of it actually exists in a "this is in the real world" way. And the only way to make it exist outside of my head for anyone reading it is to write it down in a way that makes it exist. I'll admit, I am still fairly lazy with my landscapes more than my buildings, probably because the buildings don't exist outside of PBox's world, but a tree or a mountain does. I guess if anyone wants better descriptions of trees or mountains, I'll do better. I also nerd out about clothing more than I probably should, and possibly more than is necessary. I realize I've never taken much time to describe what a character looks like (especially in later chapters when the "villains of the chapter" are basically faceless even though I know exactly which one is which, though y'all don't then); I think this is a symptom of it being fanfic, I assume y'all know what everyone looks like if they're not an original character (obviously the Boys, but even NSYNC). But, I will always talk to you about Nick's eyes and smile, even more than the other Boys.

I think that's about it? Or at least, those are the major things I associate with PBox and my craft as a writer. And now, this has been your weekly diatribe on PBox and another novel about my novel. At some point, I can publish a book called "And here is everything you wanted to know about the background of PBox and my growth as a writer."

I have now done nothing productive today except post really long winded things on this forum. Supreme time waster indeed!
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~*Dee*~

People think it would be fun to be a bird because you could fly. But they forget the negative side, which is the preening.

From "And Now, Deep Thoughts" by Jack Handey

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2021, 07:24:49 PM »

Right?!?  I wrote a story making fun of dumbass Shorty for the fairy tale challenge we did here in 2013, and it was so much fun roasting her in a fanfic.  I hate that song so much.  It's my least favorite BSB song of all time.

I don't know if that's a fairy tale for her, but it's probably a fairy tale for a celebrity, lmao.


Me too!  I can't imagine how long BMS would be if I had still been working on it in 2013 LOL, but I'm glad I wasn't.  Though I may have found the time and energy to keep writing BMS during my master's program because I somehow did during student teaching and my first year of teaching, which had to have been the busiest, most stressful years of my life.  I still don't know how I did that.  Oh, to be young again LOL.

Very long! You may have included some of the unwritten third book in it at that point. You probably would have if you did during student teaching and first year, since I can confirm that those are stressful and probably a lot of my lack of inspiration in that 2015-2016 time frame. I'm sure part of it was youth and part of it was hyperfocus on "I care about this A LOT, possibly THE MOST."


I know One Direction fanfic was big a few years ago, and BTS fanfic seems to be popular on AO3.  If you do any poking around, let us know your findings.

Those were both of my possible research topics, actually. Since I've done nothing else today, I might as well stay unproductive and go research this, lol.
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~*Dee*~

People think it would be fun to be a bird because you could fly. But they forget the negative side, which is the preening.

From "And Now, Deep Thoughts" by Jack Handey

nicksgal

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2021, 07:35:06 PM »

This is all good advice.  You never know what you'll accomplish if you don't at least open the story and try.  But it's good to give yourself grace, especially when you have a good reason not to write.  Like, "I just got vaccinated, and my arm hurts, and I don't feel good."  Totally valid excuse to skip a day (or several days) and do nothing!  At the end of the day, this is a hobby, not a job - it should be fun, not feel like work.  If it gets to the point when it feels like a chore, stop forcing it and do something different.

It doesn't help that Nick cared more about the second half of this chapter than the first half. Stop being quiet Nick, tell me your plans! Realistically, at the end of the day, inspiration can't be forced and the process of forcing it is draining. But if it's one thing that keeps holding up a bunch of other things, it's good to try to bust through it. I am totally using my valid excuse to be a completely useless writer, haha. I preemptively edited my next update chapter, so there's nothing on next week's plate. Gotta get past this "no looming deadlines" bit and write something. It probably doesn't help that I already "see the end" of PNecklace and am trying to figure out what to work on next. I am feeling better and did drink two coffees today, so maybe inspiration will still strike today.

This!  It has definitely helped keep me motivated during the work week so I can be productive on the weekends.  I even wrote on Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday this week.

Woah! Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday writing! You are really productive and motivated on this one! I'm glad you found the thing to work on with very little WADD.

LOL That's what I figured and why I was fine with the scene I picked.  That plot point has been talked about so much on this forum, it's no longer a spoiler.

I love when we have ubiquitous things like that, if for nothing else than the jokes.
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~*Dee*~

People think it would be fun to be a bird because you could fly. But they forget the negative side, which is the preening.

From "And Now, Deep Thoughts" by Jack Handey

nicksgal

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2021, 07:39:24 PM »

Most of my stories are written in first person with five points of view. I find that the easiest way to write for some reason.

That probably seemed very random, but I saw it in conversation and sometimes these threads move so fast I can’t remember where so... lol

LOL No worries, we did talk about that the other day.  You were good at writing the five different POVs, and I don't remember it getting confusing in your stories.

It is never random! If you brought this up two weeks from now, I may have forgotten the original discussion, but not when we talked about it on Thursday.

I can't remember, Mare, did you switch between the POVs evenly or were they skewed toward one of the Boys (I assume Nick if that's the case)? I don't feel like your stories were ever confusing because of it, regardless.
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~*Dee*~

People think it would be fun to be a bird because you could fly. But they forget the negative side, which is the preening.

From "And Now, Deep Thoughts" by Jack Handey

RokofAges75

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2021, 08:15:05 PM »

When did you write it, and/or how old were you when you wrote it?

Gobosei: 2005-2006, 2013, 2015 (17/18, 25, 27)

PBox: 2005-2008 with an update from September 2020-January 2021 (17-20, 32-barely 33)

I asked the age question because I was curious to see how many of us were around the same age when we had that leap in writing development.  I was also 17 when I started Broken, so we are alike in that way!


It got fixed earlier in that 2003 OF because I had a friend reading along that knew I based a character off of them, wholly supported it, and had zero qualms telling me "this sucks" when it did suck. I took this perspective to heart and started looking at my fanfics with the same lens.

Wow, that is some friend!  Was it hard to hear "this sucks" from her then, or did you welcome the harsh but honest feedback?  I'm glad it helped you look at your writing through another lens and learn from her constructive criticism.


All of that makes me see why self-insert stories would have been popular outside of "My life would be awesome if I dated a Backstreet Boy." It's easier to write a character when you know how they would react to things! But this has the same problem as "my friends are characters" if there's no character development over the course of the story. This is all very vague for Gobosei since there's not much there for anyone else to say "oh yes, all these things are there in it," but they're there in it with the whole picture in my head.

Yeah, it's definitely easier to use characters who already exist, whether they're people we know in real life or celebrities.  It can be fun to base characters on people, too, but it's also fun to create your own.  I think the problem with most of the teenybopper Mary Sue stories back in the day was that if the writers created an original character instead of a self-insert, they focused more on her external traits, like her appearance and clothing, than internal traits, so they ended up with this flat drawing of a pretty girl who everyone seemed to love even though she had no substance, rather than a realistic, three-dimensional character.  The ability to create one of those comes with experience, so self-inserts may have been a better choice for beginning writers.


And over the years, he's ultimately continued to breathe life into it as an entity, something akin to "You're writing it, but this is my story. I drive this bus." (It's cool, Nick, keep driving the bus. I trust you.)

Just don't crash the bus, Nick!  Or do, and then we can get another fanfic out of it.


Even with strong characters, I came to the realization that PBox was dark. Even with "our demons are different" at play (which is a type of dark in and of itself if your main characters are this "typically always malevolently chaotic evil" type thing; not that PBox demons are that, or at least not our Boys, they're downright heroic saving innocent bystanders and taking cats out of trees in their free time), it was incredibly dark in a way that Gobosei was not and that I had shied away from in the past. But I wanted to write it and Nick wanted control of that bus... immensely. But how to write a very dark thing? Well? The writing to needed to mature; the fun-fest jokey and at times ridiculous way of writing a Gobosei wouldn't fly for a PBox, not with its inherent setting of "the world is crummy." I learned to embrace the dark (Team Dark!) and how to draw lines for too dark, which I kept crossing as time went on. I guess I learned that you have to write dark things a certain way and saved my fun-fest jokey writing for stories that would support it.

I can relate to this too.  Broken doesn't seem that dark to me now, but it is certainly angsty and depressing in parts.  Back when I was writing it, I had a lot of angst over the impending amputation.  I don't know why because I had already put the Boys through all kinds of tragedies in my earlier stories, even killed some of them... but for whatever reason, chopping off Nick's leg felt like a really big deal to me.  But it was also a compelling enough idea that I committed to it, and that is when I learned to take risks, cross lines, embrace the darkness, and run with it.  The fact that Broken doesn't seem that dark and chopping off Nick's leg doesn't seem like a big deal to me now just shows me how much darker I've gotten since then LOL.  As we've talked about before, it's good to occasionally cross lines and write things that make you uncomfortable because by stepping outside your comfort zone, you're more likely to learn and grow.  That being said, there's still a place for comic relief and flashes of light in a dark story, and there's nothing wrong with fun-fest jokey writing when it fits the story.  I don't know if "Death by Snail" fits your definition of fun-fest jokey writing, being more of a dark humor, but I'm looking forward to it!


Gobosei is also largely based in our world as is, so it wasn't a whole new adventure world building. At minimum, Gobosei required a "how does this magic system work?" PBox required that and a whole slew of things from geography to climate to political systems to cultural norms and so on. Creating these things meant I had to learn how to research (in a different way than for writing a paper or doing a project in school) and research hard! Even things that wouldn't seem like they needed research, like "how does this magic system work," but that has been a constant fun romp in researching and has gotten me down so many rabbit holes I never knew I would end up in just based on the nature of the answer. I wish I'd kept track of my hours of research because it would be something else, as I'm sure you all know in your own adventures in researching.

And it wasn't only world building or plot elements. I wanted to have fight scenes which I'd never written before, so I watched hours of kung fu movies and sword fighting movies. I've watched fencing competitions. I know a ridiculous amount of vocabulary for parts of weapons that is not useful in any other aspect of my life; at least kung fu movies are just fun. When that Bruce Lee 30 for 30 aired last year, I actually jotted down some notes (though that isn't directly applicable to PBox, it fits this overall point). If an exhibit came to one of our museums that felt relevant, I went (outside of my love for museums). I'd include my mythology related research in this too, but that's just fun and a regular hobby that happens to tie into my love of writing. I have run the gambit of things I've researched for PBox from "plants that typically grow in x climate" to "how the body reacts to toxins and poisons" to "furniture of the Muromachi era" to "how do big things fly." And those are just four examples, in addition to specific ones I listed.

In the name of character development, I also had to learn how to portray real things in believable, nuanced, and non-hand waving ways. Nick is, essentially, an amnesiac with PTSD, so what does that actually look like in real life and not in fiction land? This includes research, but then how to turn research into believable narrative? It's all super subtle and it's only improved with time, since writing is an ongoing process. I don't know if anyone noticed this, for instance, but Nick (especially in the beginning of PBox) usually stands with his back to walls so he can see everything happening in the room and react as needed; he does it less as time goes on because he has other people to "watch his back."

I'm always impressed by the level of research you do, as well as your attention to detail when it comes to building worlds and creating characters.  I know we've already discussed the strange things we've looked up for stories, but another question could be, "What random knowledge have you acquired thanks to fanfic?"  Like parts of weapons and the rules of fencing!  

I also admire how much thought you put into your characters and their actions and words.  It's one thing to come up with all little quirks, like Nick always standing with his back against the wall in the beginning, but then to write them in such a subtle and nuanced way so that your readers may not even notice that or realize why...  That takes a certain level of sophistication .  When you spend a lot of time researching and crafting a character or world, it's tempting to want to include every detail you know in the actual story.  I struggle with that temptation of wanting to over-explain and include details that don't really need to be in the story just because I find them interesting.


While Gobosei helped me start improving on my meaningful dialogue/character interactions, PBox helped me improve on description because I did all this research and creating that couldn't just be explained with a "they were at a mall" type thing because none of it actually exists in a "this is in the real world" way. And the only way to make it exist outside of my head for anyone reading it is to write it down in a way that makes it exist. I'll admit, I am still fairly lazy with my landscapes more than my buildings, probably because the buildings don't exist outside of PBox's world, but a tree or a mountain does. I guess if anyone wants better descriptions of trees or mountains, I'll do better. I also nerd out about clothing more than I probably should, and possibly more than is necessary. I realize I've never taken much time to describe what a character looks like (especially in later chapters when the "villains of the chapter" are basically faceless even though I know exactly which one is which, though y'all don't then); I think this is a symptom of it being fanfic, I assume y'all know what everyone looks like if they're not an original character (obviously the Boys, but even NSYNC). But, I will always talk to you about Nick's eyes and smile, even more than the other Boys.

With description, I think it's important to find a balance between "not enough" and "too much."  Obviously, description is needed to help bring a story to life in the reader's head.  But too much description can bog down the story, bore the reader, and put you in purple prose territory.  With fantasy, I think it makes sense to save your longer descriptions for things that don't exist the same way in our world.  That helps the reader picture and understand the world you've created for your story.  They don't need a detailed description of every leaf on a tree.  They also don't need constant reminders of what the Backstreet Boys look like, although I never mind a description of their pretty eyes or smiles.  Or hair!
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~Julie

"Sometimes writers and sociopaths are hard to tell apart." -J.K. Rowling

RokofAges75

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2021, 08:36:25 PM »

I'm sure part of it was youth and part of it was hyperfocus on "I care about this A LOT, possibly THE MOST."

Definitely!  I'm sure it helped that I was already about halfway through BMS when I started student teaching, so it wasn't like I was writing a new story.  I already knew those characters well and was committed to telling the rest of their story, so it was easy to stay inspired and write when I had time.

This was also before smartphones and social media, which have really hurt my focus. The only thing I had to distract me at that time was IM, but even that was usually helpful in the same way this forum is.  Most of the people I chatted with were fellow fanfic authors or at least readers (who were reading my story), so we could encourage each other and bounce ideas off each other.  There were plenty of nights when I'd have an IM window open with a friend who was also writing, and we would just use it to occasionally check in on each other.  "How's the writing going?"  "I've written two pages so far!  You?"  Then we'd send each other chapters to read and give feedback on before we posted them for the rest of the world.  We never called it beta-reading, but that's basically what we were doing.


It probably doesn't help that I already "see the end" of PNecklace and am trying to figure out what to work on next. I am feeling better and did drink two coffees today, so maybe inspiration will still strike today.

This is always me toward the end of a novel, too.  Sometimes I know (or think I know) what idea I'm going to write next, and I get so excited about it that it's hard to stay focused on finishing the in-progress story.  Other times I have no idea what idea I'm going to tackle next, and the uncertainty is what interferes with my focus.  And it's dumb because even when I think I know what idea I'm going to work on, that doesn't always end up being the one I really do write next.  I always figure it out eventually though.

I'm glad you're feeling better and hope the two coffees help!


Woah! Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday writing! You are really productive and motivated on this one! I'm glad you found the thing to work on with very little WADD.

I didn't write much on any of those days - maybe Monday, which is I think when I finished Chapter 5.  I only had like two paragraphs written for Chapter 6 before today.  Now I'm up to 1500 words, which is fairly productive for me these days.  But it's taken me the better part of the day to get to that point.  I wrote all morning, then took a break to shower, eat, watch TV, and do a bit of cleaning, and then wrote more this afternoon.  But I am definitely into it, which I'm happy about - I wasn't sure how that would go for my first Kevin story LOL.
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~Julie

"Sometimes writers and sociopaths are hard to tell apart." -J.K. Rowling

nicksgal

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Re: The Writing Thread: Orlando Passaggio (aka The Writing Thread 3)
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2021, 09:14:13 PM »

I know One Direction fanfic was big a few years ago, and BTS fanfic seems to be popular on AO3.  If you do any poking around, let us know your findings.

It's weird that there's only about 1,400 BSB fanfics on AO3. I guess it makes sense since AO3 didn't exist in our fanfic heyday, but I know there's way more than 1,400 BSB fanfics out there. And it's weird to think about when fanfiction.net removed all its RPF fandoms and so we all had to go rogue, haha. One Direction and BTS fans are lucky they didn't have to deal with that. (I also have found that there are 66 fanfics about TSwift's Bad Blood music video?)

I also found out "face f-ing" is a tag? And that story is tagged "fantasy" in a way the genre is not intended (I assume, I didn't click on it) in addition to "sexual fantasy" that might be valid?

Here's a smattering of BSB fanfic info via AO3 (1,464 works) and AC for comparison (3,187 stories; it doesn't give hard numbers, so I'm listing pages -- there's about 15 stories per page and 213 pages for all stories if that helps, though obviously most stories are multi-genre):

  • romance: 130 (99 pages)
  • drama: 124 (108 pages)
  • angst: 112 (50 pages)
  • suspense: 33 (28 pages)
  • horror: 21 (10 pages)
  • fantasy: 20 (I'm responsible for two of them and Julie is responsible for three of them, so call it 15 without us) (11 pages)
  • sci-fi: 15 (8 pages)
  • medical drama: 14? (this one was hard to figure out what tag to use and I went with "medical" since there were two Julie stories, but also noticed that you didn't list Curtain Call as "medical," I assume for the spoilery nature of it) (doesn't exist as a genre on AC)
  • supernatural elements: 38 (11 pages)
  • action/adventure: 14 (I see me, Rose, Mare, and Tracy here)(16-19 pages, they're different genres here)
  • comedy: 39 (48 pages)
  • historical: 4 (2 pages)
  • AU: 116 (24 pages)
  • slash: 917 (12 pages); (anal sex is labeled 111 times on AO3 if anyone wanted more specific statistics)

One Direction on AO3 (63,651 works):

  • romance: 2,134
  • drama: 499
  • angst: 7,401
  • suspense: 57
  • horror: 105
  • fantasy: 590
  • sci-fi: 585
  • medical drama: 1,037
  • supernatural elements: 1,587
  • action/adventure: 159
  • comedy: 186
  • historical: 640
  • AU: 8,272
  • slash: 56,063 (anal sex is labeled 5,755 times if anyone wanted more specific statistics)

BTS on AO3 (152,327 works... dang that's a lot):

  • romance: 11,021
  • drama: 2,491
  • angst: 25,129
  • suspense: 296
  • horror: 1,009
  • fantasy: 6,367 (hey that's a lot, yay for fantasy)
  • sci-fi: 1,250
  • medical drama: 2,420
  • supernatural elements: 9,986
  • action/adventure: 1,276
  • comedy: 1,505
  • historical: 1,062
  • AU: 11,013
  • slash: 123,565 (anal sex is labeled 9,572 times if anyone wanted more specific statistics)

I guess our "Additional tags" section included more things that I would call genres and the other two had more subtags for sex (as I noted above with anal sex being listed for all three fandoms in the "additional tags" section) or character related tags. So we might define our work by genre more than the other fandoms do? I also realized I didn't initially look up historical fiction and added it in. And then I realized it was 8pm and I hadn't eaten dinner yet.

Percentage that is slash (again, if you wanted more detailed statistics):
  • BSB: 63% (about 6% on AC?)
  • One Direction: 88%
  • BTS: 81%

I'm willing to do more math and extrapolate more data if anyone would like it. And turn AC's data into numbers of stories rather than pages of stories, I'm just being lazy.
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~*Dee*~

People think it would be fun to be a bird because you could fly. But they forget the negative side, which is the preening.

From "And Now, Deep Thoughts" by Jack Handey
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