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[RokofAges75]

My interpretation is that Absolute Chaos will continue to stay online, as is, for as long as possible (or as long as Ash continues to renew the domain).  What Open Doors does is preserve old, "at-risk" archive sites like AC by importing all the stories into a collection on AO3.  That way, if and when the original site goes down, the stories are preserved somewhere else and don't disappear.  I found a list of all the other archives they have done this with so far: https://opendoors.transformativeworks.org/en/online-archives/  If you click on MuggleNet Fanfiction, for example, you get a link to its collection on AO3: https://archiveofourown.org/collections/mugglenetfanfiction  This is a good example of what it will look like.

I also found this announcement from MuggleNet that explains the process in more detail: https://archiveofourown.org/admin_posts/30736  It addresses some of my concerns about duplicate works appearing on AO3, although I'm not sure how much of this is Open Doors' policy and how much of this is coming from MuggletNet moderators who had the same concerns.  In their announcement, they say that if they find a copy of works already on AO3, they will just add those to the collection instead of importing the old versions.  If Open Doors does this automatically, then it may not be an issue at all.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean we should delete stories from AC before they are transferred to avoid duplicates.  I think they should stay on AC in their original form.  But if they all get automatically imported into AO3, then I would want the ability to delete (from AO3, not AC) the duplicates of the ones I've already posted on AO3 myself and put the versions that have been on AO3 longer in the collection instead.  Everyone will have the ability to claim their work and have it added to their AO3 account, regardless of whether it's the same username as you have on AC.  Once the works are connected to your account, they'll show up in your works, and you'll have control over them, just like the ones you've already posted yourself.  And we can have more than one moderator of the collection, so it doesn't have to be just one person in control of making changes to it.  I have Rose set as a co-moderator of the 1000 Ways collections, so I know that's possible.

I think an announcement on the main AC site is a good idea once we have the details ironed out, just so people know this is happening, but we don't want anyone deleting anything before the transfer.

[Chaos]

That is pretty much my understanding--that they will import everything, but do checks for duplicates. Unfortunately, I don't think that the reviews or anything transfer over (plus, although I deleted out hundreds of spam reviews at some points, I'm sure there are still a TON left over. I wish there was a good way to keep those, but...I don't think there are. At least not easily. For those who wanted to keep them, it MIGHT be possible to use the database to associate the comments with the story and post them as a "chapter" or something, but would have to research that a bit...

I will be keeping the domain and the archive as-is alive as long as I possibly can. I am getting more worried each time I have to upgrade the server that it'll be the upgrade that completely breaks viewing.  I have backed up the database and all the stories, so even if the site does go down, OpenDoors already has the backup and can still import to their archive.

The actual move will be announce on AO3, as well as a few other locations that they oversee. I'll also put a note on AC's front page. I don't think we can pre-delete at this point since they already have that backup. It sounds like there are a few archives ahead of ours to get moved, but we're on the list--it will be a while though before it's done.

Julie, I think you'd make an awesome owner. I like that the archive stays open at least for a while--I think those stories that are unfinished on AC, but maybe finished elsewhere would still be able to be added to in the collection.  Is the best email for you the one in your profile here? If not, please PM me with the email address you'd want to have as the contact. I'll be happy to help as much as possible for this, but know my availability just hasn't been good for a loooooong time now and I don't see it getting much better.

The next question they want the answer to for the collection:  Do we want sub-categories such as one for each fandom. BSB is obviously the biggest one, but we do have some smaller ones that have some representation--would we want those just all under the AC Collection, or would we want subs like AC BSB, AC HP, AC NCIS, etc.?  That may already happen with the import and they get assigned to fandoms, but I'm not sure of that. I should look at the other archive you mentioned to see what they're like.

Do we want the collection to be restricted viewing to only users that are logged in? It sounds like automatically for the first 30 days they do lock it down like that, but then after that they usually open up all the unclaimed fics, etc so they're visible to all unless we request it stay to logged in users only.

FYI, I've got a longtime friend who is going to help out as much as she can with importing (and is the one who submitted us to OpenDoors in the first place). She doesn't have a login here (yet?) but if you see the name Kimela during this process, that's who we're talking about.

[nicksgal]

So, logged in automatically just fine on my computer so not sure what the issue was? Maybe dual login was the issue. Thanks for troubleshootin g, Mare!

Real talk, yall -- you think you're busy and then you add a small human to your life, lol. Thanks for the grace.

I agree that the most important thing is to preserve history and I think this import is a wonderful way to do that after losing both FF.net and everything through Geocities. Ash, I think it's wonderful that your friend Kimela proposed a viable solution for keeping all of this alive post-tech issues and that you've worked so hard to keep everything going all this time despite tech marching on. End of life is an unfortunate, but real issue.

I also agree with what everyone has put forth regarding questions on duplicates, ownership, and so on. I think one (or several) of us assisting with the move will make everything as smooth as possible for all of us. If we're in the June/July time-frame, I have more foreseeable free time that I would be willing to donate too. Overall, Julie is a great choice for Team Lead, especially as she already threw her hat in the ring!

I have no strong opinions on the new questions, I think whatever just makes the most sense with navigating the collection and organizing the fandom categories. The post Julie included about MuggleNet FF seems similar in spirit to what it seems everyone here is expressing as their interests in the move.

[mare]

I'm glad you finally got on here, Dee.

Like I said earlier, I'm willing to help in whatever way I can as well, as long as you tell me exactly what I need to do like I was a kindergarten kid, because apparently, this is way over my head. lol

[RokofAges75]

Thanks, Ash!  I just PMed you with my email.

I did some more exploring of the Open Doors site and the other archives they've already preserved, and each one of them has an identical announcement post like the example I linked for MuggleNet yesterday.  So I think that was coming from Open Doors, not MuggleNet's moderators, and is representative of their policy for all archives, meaning they should check for duplicates of our stories, too.  They seem very organized!  I also read that it can take months to years to fully import big archives, so if there are others in front of us, this may not even happen this year.  I was surprised at how few stories were in the MuggleNet collection because Harry Potter is a huge fandom, but it looks like they just started archiving it in December, so it's probably still in progress.

I'm glad they already have a backup of everything, just in case AC goes down before everything gets moved.  For anyone else who wants to save their reviews, I backed up all mine a few years ago when AC was getting really glitchy, and we were concerned it was going to disappear.  I did it by clicking through each page of reviews and saving the page as an HTML file. (On Chrome on a desktop, you go to the three dots menu -> Cast, save, and share -> Save page as.)  It took awhile, but it'll be nice to have them if/when the site goes down for good.  The overall quality and quantity of comments on AO3 are just not the same!

As far as sub-categories go, I don't think that would be necessary as long as the fandoms get tagged during the import (which I think they will).  It's easy to filter by fandom on AO3.  Here's an example of a collection from another preserved archive over 3000 stories from multiple fandoms: https://archiveofourown.org/collections/libraryofmoria  If you click on Fandoms, it lists the various fandoms that are represented, and you can click on the one you want to browse.  This one also has three sub-collections for various challenges they did, so you can see what that would look like.

I also read that the collection will be automatically restricted to registered viewers for the first 30 days (probably to give authors time to claim their work or request that it be deleted if they don't want it on AO3), but I'm fine with it being visible to everyone after that period.

Thanks for the info!  Let me know if there's anything else you need from me at this stage or if there's anything I can do to help.  I'm also happy to have co-moderators of the collection.  I think once the transfer is done and the collection is set up, moderating will just be a matter of responding to user requests to add or delete their stories and that kind of thing.  Depending on what kind of response we get from other AC writers, it may be a lot at first, but I doubt it will take much time after that first 30 days or so.  I also think it'll be more straightforwar d than it may seem here once it's all set up.  It sounds like Open Doors is doing the hard work of transferring and setting everything up for us.

[RokofAges75]

Glad you were able to get in, Dee!  Thanks for sharing your thoughts and volunteering to help when you can!

[Tracy]

I'm back in. took a while but I just made a new account so I can post.

I think archiving to AO3 is great. I already had moved my sfuff there years ago. and I have my work on wattpad as well for a back up. I would be happy to be able to still read the stories if they were moved.

[RokofAges75]

Sorry you had such a hard time getting in, Tracy.  What a hassle!  Thanks for chiming in.  It will be nice to be able to get and receive comments on AC stories again.

Selfishly, I love that someone else is going to be doing the work of importing Broken and BMS for me LOL.  Those are the main two I still haven't moved to AO3 because of how many chapters they are and how much editing they need.  I will probably still want to edit them there at some point, but that's a project for the future.  Hopefully Open Doors has an easy way of importing all these stories without them looking like a hot mess with all the weird symbols we sometimes see on AC stories that were originally written in MS Word.  Like this: https://absolutechaos.net/viewstory.php?sid=5354&chapter=1 🤦‍♀️

[mare]

I know most of mine showed up with all those symbols. For every single punctuation mark of any kind.

[Sakabelle]

Hi, it's been a while. I was directed to the tweet that links to this thread by a friend.

While I understand and sympathize with the desire to archive old works so they aren't lost to the Internet sands of time, I cannot support this auto opt-in policy. Personally, I do not want my works (under the same author name as my forum name here, Sakabelle) imported to AO3 on my behalf.

Further, I do not agree with doing this in bulk. There are many authors and stories on here that have long been on the archive, and to pick them up and move them elsewhere feels disrespectful to them. These authors should have a choice in the matter, they still own their words and still should have a say in what is done with them and where they are posted.

AC's own terms of service states "Disclaimers (i.e. covering legal butts): All fiction is copyright to the individual writers. Do not copy in whole or in part." So I'm not sure why that would not extend to the moderators of this site who have access to the database to pull the information in a raw format. If anything, moderators have more of an obligation to uphold this given they have access to the data in trust.

I am aware I'm coming of as combative and I'm also aware that other discussions and opinions that some of us disagree on probably do not make it easy to want to understand what I'm saying. I debated with myself posting this here at all, but given I was a part of this community for many years I would be remiss if I didn't say something.

[RokofAges75]

Visit https://opendoors.transformativeworks.org/en/faq/ for more information on the purpose of preserving at-risk archives and how to request that your works not be imported to AO3.  Open Doors makes every effort to contact creators, credit them, and give them control over what happens to their work.

[RokofAges75]

I know most of mine showed up with all those symbols. For every single punctuation mark of any kind.

So annoying!  I hope the Open Doors team has a solution for that because I'm sure AC isn't the only old archive with that problem.

[julilly]

I must admit to being on the fence about the idea of forcing people to have their works moved to a site where they didn’t get to agree to the terms and conditions. Yes, you can ask for it to be removed after the fact, but if you don’t still use the same email address that you did in 2006 when you set up your account, or you don’t monitor A03, the chances of knowing are pretty slim. We’re also probably talking about work by people who have passed away and will not have the ability to claim their work.

Personally, I wouldn’t want my stuff moved. Anything I wanted to post in A03 I already did, anything else was my responsibility to back up because I’m the copyright holder. I’m happy for anything I didn’t save to head into the void of the internet and I’m sure I’m not alone in that.

I dunno 🤷‍♀️

[julilly]

I did find something interesting that may be useful to include in any communications . There is a way to ensure your content is not migrated. If you send the email address that you used on AC, or any identifying info if you don’t have access to the email, to Open Doors they’ll block that address from being included in any migrations.

https://opendoors.transformativeworks.org/en/faq/what-if-i-dont-want-my-works-be-imported/

Something else they mention is that it’s up to the creator to remove duplicates. They don’t screen for them.

[RokofAges75]

Yep!  Creators can request their content not be imported, and they can also request it be deleted if they don't find out about it until after the fact.  Like Ash said, it may be awhile before they actually get to AC, so there will be time to advertise this and try to make people aware that it's happening so they can take action if they don't want their stories archived on AO3.

As far as duplicates go, this is what the FAQ page says:

What if I have already posted a copy of the works being imported on the AO3?
If you imported the work from the original archive using our import feature, then the work will not be imported again and your existing copy will be automatically associated with the new collection. If you posted the work manually or imported it from a different url, then you will need to decide what to do with the duplicate work. Keeping in mind that when possible, the imported archive’s web addresses will redirect to the imported copy of these works (to preserve rec lists and bookmarks), you can:

-Wait for the merge tool currently in development, which can combine the hit counts and reviews of both copies, while keeping only one work body (and preserving the redirect link, if applicable).
-Delete the imported copy (breaking the redirect link, if applicable), and add the pre-existing copy to the imported-archive’s collection.
-Delete the pre-existing copy on AO3.
-When applicable, request that Open Doors reset the redirect to point toward the pre-existing copy on AO3. To do so, please contact Open Doors with your AO3 account name, imported archive’s account name, and links to the works that you want the redirects to point to.


It sounds like they can detect duplicates if you posted them using the import feature, and they won't import those again.  But if you just manually copy/pasted them (which is what I did with mine), then you will end up with duplicates and can choose one of the options they lay out above to handle that.  Hopefully this clears up some of the questions we had about duplicates.  The merge tool they mention that's in development sounds cool!  It would be nice if that were done by the time they get to AC.