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[Chaos]

I have been approached by the OTW (Opendoors - Organization for Transformative Works) https://opendoors.transformativeworks.org/en/  about preserving the Absolute Chaos Archive. I'm thinking this would be a really good idea because once again my server is at the End of Support and needs to be upgraded to yet another new version. I have never been able to fix the archive since the last upgrade, and it's only gotten further out of support with no likely update of the EFiction software.

How do you all feel about such a move? I would keep this archive (and this message board) alive as long as possible (this board MUCH easier as the software can be updated...) BUT knowing that the efiction archive is unlikely to ever be "working" again for updating, etc, and could possibly become lost to the ether with another server upgrade (or two) that it'd be great to have as much of it backed up elsewhere as possible.

I'm not sure how many of you all are still around, but if you are here and see this, please let me know your feelings on the subject. I think that when they start importing the site to their project that they reach out to any authors in the archive to offer them the opportunity to opt out or to make anonymous any works, but honestly I'm not sure how exactly that works or what happens with the authors with outdated email addresses in the archive, and/or who are no longer part of fandom or don't respond. 

I'd hate to see all these stories disappear, but can make no guarantees that I'll be able to preserve them (except via a database that would be saved in my back-up drives, but that wouldn't really make them available to others...).

Let me know if you have good reasons not to move forward with letting OTW (they work hand-in-hand with AO3) help preserve these stories. Or if you have any other thoughts about the preservation project.

[mare]

I think it’s a great idea.

[Carter-Orange]

I think it's a good idea

[mare]

Tracy couldn't log on, but she also thinks it's fine. She had a good question. Will our reviews also be saved to the archive or will they be lost?

[RokofAges75]

I also think it's a great idea!  I would hate to see AC disappear for good.

[Chaos]

The ball is very slowly starting to roll on this, and there are some decisions to make. I'm going to post the first decision here because I don't think it's actually mine to make. I really won't have the time to commit to be the "owner" of the collection if we choose to go that route. So, I'd give first option to Mare if she wants to step in as an owner, but would also open up the idea to any others of you guys who are still here who might be interested in moderating or owning the collection. If there isn't a desire to reopen the collection for new works and/or no one wants to take on the moderating, we can give ownership of the collection to OpenDoors and they deal with all of the creator requests, etc.

Moderating the Collection

Do you want to continue to own (i.e. be in charge of) the AO3 collection after the import? (This would ensure that you would have the authority to delete, transfer, or anonymize works upon creator request. It would also mean that the archivist email we will set up, to which most users send their queries about claiming or deleting their works, would forward to your email address after the import.)

If so, would you like the AO3 collection to be open or closed to new works? (Please note that the collection needs to be closed if Open Doors is the collection owner.)

If open, do you want the collection to be moderated (i.e. new submissions must be approved)? If so, would you be the moderator, or would you find someone else?

If you want to own and/or moderate the AO3 collection, what is the name of the AO3 account from which you would like to do so?

If you don’t already have or intend to create your own AO3 account, you’ll be able to own and/or moderate the collection from the archivist account that we will create for you.

If you want to own the AO3 collection, are you comfortable with Open Doors making changes to the collection (e.g., transferring or deleting works) if creators contact us directly with requests, or would you like Open Doors to forward all creator requests we receive to you?

If Open Doors owns the collection, we will take care of all creator requests by default; the above question only applies if you want to be the collection owner.

[mare]

Wow, I'm not sure I'm up for that job. To be honest, I hardly understood most of that. I'm not tech savy enough to own anything internet related. I do think it's a great idea though and I'd be willing to help whoever decides to do this when and if I can. So, this would mean that the entire AC archive would all transfer over to AO3 as one account? As if it's just an author posting a thousand stories? I still don't fully even understand how AO3 works, and I've been on there for a hot minute.

I enjoy moderating this message board. This is more my speed. lol

[Chaos]

I'm not familiar enough to say how it works exactly, but my understanding is that the stories might get imported into their archive under an archive account, but the authors are all contacted (if possible since the addresses are old) and can choose to have the stories moved to their own accounts, or can ask the stories to be removed or set to anonymous.

I'd be inclined to let the Open Doors people take "ownership", but that will mean that no new works can be added to the collection--which since they haven't been added to in a few years, probably won't make a big difference. I just didn't want to declare that for all if there is someone interested in reviving it.

[RokofAges75]

Thanks for the update, Ash!  I would be willing to help with this if we decide we want to retain control over the collection.  From my understanding of what you posted, this would only really matter if we want to leave it open to new submissions.  Either way, authors would still be able to claim their old stories or request that they be deleted or made anonymous.  So I guess I'm wondering if anyone is really interested in keeping the collection open.  While I love the idea of being able to access and interact with AC stories on AO3, I personally don't see the point of posting new stories in an AC collection on AO3.  But that's just my opinion.

If others do want to leave it open or want one of us to retain control, I'll throw my name in the ring as a potential owner and/or moderator.  I have the same username on AO3, RokofAges75.  I created a couple of small collections on AO3 for people who contributed to 1000 Ways to Kill Nick Carter and its spinoff to post their stories in, so I'm at least familiar with how they work.  For Mare and anyone else wondering, this is what a collection looks like: https://archiveofourown.org/collections/1000WaystoKillNickCarter/works  It's literally just a list of stories like you would see for any fandom or tag, and when you click on one, you'll see the name of the collection included below the tags and all that to link it back to the other works in that collection.  Obviously, the AC collection would be a lot bigger.

If no one cares about leaving it open to submissions, I'm okay with letting Open Doors take ownership and handle creator requests.

Edit: After thinking more about this, I do want one of us to retain control over the collection and keep it open, at least temporarily.  See my posts below for the reasons why.

[RokofAges75]

Just out of curiosity... I'm assuming all that would transfer from AC to AO3 is the stories themselves, not the reviews/comments people left on AC.  Do you know if that's correct?  I wish the reviews would be transferred too, but I realize that's not really the point of archiving works.

I'm just thinking ahead of what to do with the duplicates of the old stories I've already posted on AO3 myself.  It seems pointless to have multiple versions of the same story on AO3, unless the old reviews were also posted as comments.  If not, I'd be more inclined to delete the AC versions of my stories and keep the ones that have already accrued stats in my account on AO3.  The only problem I foresee with that is that, if we give up control of the collection and make it closed, then my works wouldn't be included in the AC collection, which would be kinda sad if/when the real AC site goes down for good.  It would be nice to be able to add the stories I've already reposted on AO3 to the AC collection so they are still included along with everyone else's.  That makes me more inclined to think one of us should retain ownership and leave it open for at least a little while, for anyone else who wants to do the same.  There may not be many of us left who still post on the forum, but there are several others, like Tracy, Cinzia, and Rose, who also moved to AO3 years ago and may be faced with the same dilemma.  What are everyone else's thoughts on this?

[mare]

I'm glad you volunteered. I was hoping you would. I know you'll be excellent at it!

Personally, I think if you are going to transfer the whole archive, then it might as well be the old archive with everything, even the ones who, like me, have transferred stuff over to AO3. I know it might seem redundant, but like you said, it might also prove nostalgic for it to be included in two places. I know I moved a lot of my stories over a while ago but not all. I think if we add this other layer on to things, it'll just get confusing and honestly, I do believe at this point, only the slimmest of us actually care.

I think maybe if you made a poll on twitter, since I know some people, like Tracy have trouble logging onto here, to ask their thoughts. It would make more sense for you to do this since I believe pretty much all my BSB people stopped following me after I left the fandom. I think the better question is, what if people don't want their stories to make it onto another site? There might be more than a handful of people who would rather their stuff be deleted then moved. But again, that opens up even more chaos.

Another question worth asking, is do you move the stories that have never been completed? There are So many stories that were never finished and barring some kind of miracle never will be. Should you go through the trouble of including all of those? I personally think it would be a waste of time to do that.

[RokofAges75]

Thanks!

From my understanding, everything will automatically get transferred (including duplicates and unfinished stories) by Open Doors, the group that owns AO3.  It will be up to authors to request their works get deleted if they don't want them to be on AO3.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Ash, but I'm not sure we are able to pick and choose what gets moved ahead of time.  But if one of us retains control of the collection, we would have the ability to delete works from it after the fact.  I wouldn't feel comfortable deleting unfinished works without the author's permission, though.  Some people may still want to read them for the nostalgia.

As far as the duplicates go, if you claim them as your work, they would also appear under your works in your own account, so you would have two different copies of the stories you already moved to AO3.  Personally, I would want to claim mine, so they would be attributed to me and I would get the comments and kudos, but I wouldn't want to have two of the same story junking up my account.  I would rather have the ability to delete the AC versions from the collection and add the better-edited versions that have already accumulated comments and kudos on AO3 to the collection in their place.  That's my main reason for wanting to retain control over the collection and leave it open for at least a little while, so anyone else in the same situation can do the same if they want to.

A poll on Twitter is not a bad idea, although I'm not sure what exactly to ask or how to phrase it in a concise way.  I did not get a response to my tweet yesterday from anyone affected by this, and no one else has posted here, which makes me wonder if anyone else even saw it or cares.

[Rose]

Okay so first off, I think Julie is perfect for this. Second, even though I don't actively post fanfic anymore, I'd want to maybe clean up by not having doubles so I get what you mean there. Third, I think unfinished stories should be moved. They're unfinished but it's like lost media if they vanish forever.

[RokofAges75]

Thanks for weighing in!  And yes, that's my concern with the unfinished stories too.  Some writers don't keep back-ups after they move on from the fandom, so if they only exist on AC, and AC goes down, they could disappear forever.  You never know when someone (including the author) might want to access them again someday and possibly even finish them, as unlikely as that may seem.  We've all seen how people who have been away from the fandom for years randomly pop back in sometimes.  I think it's good to preserve as much content as possible.  Our fandom already lost so many old fics when Geocities went down.

[mare]

Just shows I still didn't really understand lol so, when the archive moves over, all those stories will potentially be listed in two places. The actual AC archive and then your own story page as well? But once it's moved, then you (Julie) would be the only person that could delete or change the stories in the archive so that's why it would make sense for the duplicate stories to be deleted over at AC before that happens? Is that correct? But...That would only happen if your username is the same at both places though, right? Because I am Mare here but because that's such a common name, I had to change it on AO3 so I'm egypt18015 there. In that case, none of the ones by Mare would end up on Egypt's page?

This is what I would suggest, if everything I said is correct, we put up an announcement somewhere. Maybe in the news section of the actual site, twitter and also on here that:

On this date, (We should give them a deadline of some kind, even if we don't know when this is happening for sure) we will be moving this entire archive over to AO3. If you do not wish to have your stories included on the archive, please go to AC and delete any stories you do not wish to be moved. Just an FYI, if you have already moved your stuff over to AO3 with the same username, you will find them duplicated on your page, so if you don't want that to happen, you should delete the AC one.

Something like that? This way, we have given ample warning and people who do still occasionally check the site, or this forum will also be aware. Dee and Tracey? If you can't log in, can you still see these posts? I'll ask that on twitter too.